The hatred of Jews
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When it is so blatantly clear in His Word.......
Ps 105~~,6 You descendants of Abraham, His servant, You sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob as a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,11 Saying, 'To you I will give the land of Canaan As the portion of your inheritance,'
Ps 105~~,6 You descendants of Abraham, His servant, You sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob as a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,11 Saying, 'To you I will give the land of Canaan As the portion of your inheritance,'
Genesis 17:8
8 “I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Amos 9
14 “Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.
Ps 105~~,6 You descendants of Abraham, His servant, You sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob as a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,11 Saying, 'To you I will give the land of Canaan As the portion of your inheritance,'
8 “I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Amos 9
14 “Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.
Ps 105~~,6 You descendants of Abraham, His servant, You sons of Jacob, His chosen ones!7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac.10 Then He confirmed it to Jacob as a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,11 Saying, 'To you I will give the land of Canaan As the portion of your inheritance,'
I can list entire chapters if you want but it approaches the character limit. I'm always careful to pull full portions of passages that do not change the context but here are full passages to show that this is a physical event.
Revelation: 21:1-27 [my brackets are to call your attention to the bold]
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[Question: do we still have seas right now?]
2 I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[Question: Is Heaven a different location than Earth right now?]
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
[Can't be any clearer here.]
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
[Question: Does mankind still currently die these days? And what were the original enemies of mankind in the garden?]
5 And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”
[It's going to happen as written.]
6 And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”
[Question: Have all the bad people been placed in the spiritual fiery lake?]
9 Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 shining with the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious jewel, like a jasper, as clear as crystal.
[Question: is heaven a different location than Earth right now?]
12 The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who spoke with me had a golden measuring rod to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, with its width the same as its length. And he measured the city with the rod, and all its dimensions were equal—12,000 stadiad in length and width and height. 17 And he measured its wall to be 144 cubits,e by the human measure the angel was using.
18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city itself of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were adorned with every kind of precious stone:
The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, with each gate consisting of a single pearl. The main street of the city was pure gold, as clear as glass.
[Question: (Ephesians 2:19-22), can you explain what each element means in light of the church?]
22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.
[The city will glow. This is a physical light. Moses was physically glowing after he was in the presence of The Almighty for many days (Exodus 34:29-35). During the transfiguration, the Messiah, Moses, and Elijah were seen glowing (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–13, Luke 9:28–36). Paul explains that different bodies will have different shines (1 Cor 15:35-41)]
26 And into the city will be brought the glory and honor of the nations.
[The nations will still exist and send tribute to the city.]
27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
[There will still be corrupt people living in the nations (Zechariah 14). This is a physical city that is separate from them.]
Revelation 22:1-21
Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
[Question: Why would there need to be leaves that can heal the nations? And what does the fruit represent if not physical fruit?]
3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
[Question: Do you currently see the Father's face? If so what does He look like?]
5 There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.
[The city will glow. This is a physical light.]
Then the angel said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent His angel to show His servants what must soon take place.”
[It's going to happen as written.]
7“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”
[We must keep the words of this book.]
8 And I am John, who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
[Again, an emphasis on keeping the words of this book.]
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11 Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”
[And now a command not to close up the words of this book.]
12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
[Question: Why does he say he's coming soon if he's already "here" in us?]
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
[There will still be corrupt people living in the nations (Zechariah 14). This is a physical city that is separate from them.]
16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
[Three times we're told to leave these words intact.]
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
[Question: Why does He say He's coming soon? Why is the reader praying for Him to come if He's already "here" in us?]
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.
Amen.
Revelation: 21:1-27 [my brackets are to call your attention to the bold]
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
[Question: do we still have seas right now?]
2 I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[Question: Is Heaven a different location than Earth right now?]
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
[Can't be any clearer here.]
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
[Question: Does mankind still currently die these days? And what were the original enemies of mankind in the garden?]
5 And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”
[It's going to happen as written.]
6 And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7 The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”
[Question: Have all the bad people been placed in the spiritual fiery lake?]
9 Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven final plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 shining with the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious jewel, like a jasper, as clear as crystal.
[Question: is heaven a different location than Earth right now?]
12 The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who spoke with me had a golden measuring rod to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, with its width the same as its length. And he measured the city with the rod, and all its dimensions were equal—12,000 stadiad in length and width and height. 17 And he measured its wall to be 144 cubits,e by the human measure the angel was using.
18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city itself of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were adorned with every kind of precious stone:
The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, with each gate consisting of a single pearl. The main street of the city was pure gold, as clear as glass.
[Question: (Ephesians 2:19-22), can you explain what each element means in light of the church?]
22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 Its gates will never be shut at the end of the day, because there will be no night there.
[The city will glow. This is a physical light. Moses was physically glowing after he was in the presence of The Almighty for many days (Exodus 34:29-35). During the transfiguration, the Messiah, Moses, and Elijah were seen glowing (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–13, Luke 9:28–36). Paul explains that different bodies will have different shines (1 Cor 15:35-41)]
26 And into the city will be brought the glory and honor of the nations.
[The nations will still exist and send tribute to the city.]
27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
[There will still be corrupt people living in the nations (Zechariah 14). This is a physical city that is separate from them.]
Revelation 22:1-21
Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
[Question: Why would there need to be leaves that can heal the nations? And what does the fruit represent if not physical fruit?]
3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
[Question: Do you currently see the Father's face? If so what does He look like?]
5 There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.
[The city will glow. This is a physical light.]
Then the angel said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent His angel to show His servants what must soon take place.”
[It's going to happen as written.]
7“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”
[We must keep the words of this book.]
8 And I am John, who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
[Again, an emphasis on keeping the words of this book.]
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11 Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”
[And now a command not to close up the words of this book.]
12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
[Question: Why does he say he's coming soon if he's already "here" in us?]
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
[There will still be corrupt people living in the nations (Zechariah 14). This is a physical city that is separate from them.]
16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
[Three times we're told to leave these words intact.]
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
[Question: Why does He say He's coming soon? Why is the reader praying for Him to come if He's already "here" in us?]
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.
Amen.
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Part of the problem we're having here is we are dealing with too large of portions of scripture in a format unsuited for it. That said, I wasn't asking for greater blocks of scripture, merely that entire passages be kept intact. Revelation 21:9 is the subject of Revelation 21:10-17. It should be given along with the rest of the verses. Leaving it out alters the meaning of the passage, while including it gives the correct meaning and lends itself to proper understanding.
You have asked some questions and shared some passages to raise objections. I'm glad to go through each point by point, but before that, do you accept that the new Jerusalem is the bride, the Lamb's wife, the church?
You have asked some questions and shared some passages to raise objections. I'm glad to go through each point by point, but before that, do you accept that the new Jerusalem is the bride, the Lamb's wife, the church?
I disagree that the church is not the bride. Ephesians 5:25-33 establishes it to be so. Simply because a particular book or passage doesn't establish every link doesn't mean other scriptures can be disregarded. In fact, this is the very next thing that needs to be established before moving forward: bride = Lamb's wife = church.
I understand that your whole argument begins to crumble in an admission of this truth, but it is easily established through scripture.
I understand that your whole argument begins to crumble in an admission of this truth, but it is easily established through scripture.
Yes, he was referring to the Old covenant. But he wrote this after Jesus was crucified, dead, buried, resurrected and ascended and the spirit was poured out on the saints at Pentecost. So then it still hadn't gone away at that point.
He destroyed the temple because they did not recognize that Jesus was the Messiah. They did not say "blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord". But Jesus Himself said they would say that, and that is what will cause the Old covenant to be done away with, when they recognize that Jesus is the Messiah.
Yes, and it will be and one of those prophecies is that Jesus is the good shepherd. There are sheep to be saved and some of them will be saved with the nation of Israel as a whole as Jesus comes back to save them.
He destroyed the temple because they did not recognize that Jesus was the Messiah. They did not say "blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord". But Jesus Himself said they would say that, and that is what will cause the Old covenant to be done away with, when they recognize that Jesus is the Messiah.
Yes, and it will be and one of those prophecies is that Jesus is the good shepherd. There are sheep to be saved and some of them will be saved with the nation of Israel as a whole as Jesus comes back to save them.
You're jumping the gun here friend. I never said the church isn't the bride. I said can we agree that the passage doesn't SAYYYYYYYYYY it, and that we should build this case line by line rather than concluding things at the start. My argument is pretty solid because it stands on all that is written (you will find the Ephesians passage referenced in my last full post). Where would you like to start?
I agree that the old covenant was still in effect at the time of the writing of Hebrews, but it was clearly on its last legs. And it survived the intertestamental period. There were a number of reasons for this. The church needed to be established, sanctions against Israel needed to be completed, etc. The sanctions culminated in the overthrow of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple just as Jesus said would happen.
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It's important to establish the church as the bride because there are some who say that the bride refers to Israel and the church to Gentiles, and never the 2 shall meet.
The truth is that the early church was almost exclusively Jewish, and they in spreading the gospel became a light unto the Gentiles.
I don't care where we go next so long as we take 1 point at a time.
The truth is that the early church was almost exclusively Jewish, and they in spreading the gospel became a light unto the Gentiles.
I don't care where we go next so long as we take 1 point at a time.
God created the heavens and the earth in six days, on the seventh day He rested. I see that as a six thousand year period followed by the millennial kingdom. Two thousand years to get to Abraham, another two thousand years to get to Jesus, and two more thousand years to get to the rapture. That means there are only two days left for the Old Covenant when the writer of Hebrews wrote that epistle. Two thousand years to God is "on its last legs".
Just to reestablish our current point of contention, I said that the goal is for The Father to physically dwell with His creation again as He did in the garden.
I don't particularly believe that we need to define what the bride is to conclude whether or not that will happen, because whether one believes the church and Israel are different or the same, the matter is concluded with His people physically seeing Him face-to-face. So, I guess we can start at Revelation 21:1.
Question 1: is Revelation 21:1 already fulfilled in your view?
Question 2: if yes, what do you make of the seas?
I don't particularly believe that we need to define what the bride is to conclude whether or not that will happen, because whether one believes the church and Israel are different or the same, the matter is concluded with His people physically seeing Him face-to-face. So, I guess we can start at Revelation 21:1.
Question 1: is Revelation 21:1 already fulfilled in your view?
Question 2: if yes, what do you make of the seas?