Gods will vs mans free will

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#701
Dec 5, 2023
747
285
63
#701
Magenta said:
That's a big if. Just sayin'. And the verses I have given a number of times from John 12 say otherwise.
Nobody addresses them because it slays the notion of free will. In fact, I have never seen free will
mentioned in relation to being saved, so all the wool gathering done around it is quite frankly unBiblical.
Then people automatically jump to thinking I believe something I do not. They have no sense.


John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Click to expand...
Thanks.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#702
Jul 3, 2015
59,709
29,057
113
#702
@phil36 I wanted to post these to you earlier...


Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#708
Jul 3, 2015
59,709
29,057
113
#708

Romans 5:12 Ephesians 2:3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#709
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,156
113
#709
Magenta said:
@phil36 I wanted to post these to you earlier...


Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Click to expand...
Great pictures as always Magenta, thanks for those.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#710
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#710
Kroogz said:
I have met just a few believers who know the angelic conflict/kingdom conflict. Nice to know another one brother.
Click to expand...
It is the biggest of big deals.
This has been the case since the trial of Adam.

1Co 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#711
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#711
Magenta said:
No problem LOL. You mean, no answer. You can't. It destroys your position. You are welcome.
Click to expand...
Well I have an answer. Hundreds of hours of answers. That totally wreck the Calvinist Reformed theories.

 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#712
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#712
Magenta said:
No problem LOL. You mean, no answer. You can't. It destroys your position. You are welcome.
Click to expand...
Well I have an answer. Hundreds of hours of answers. That totally destroy the Calvinist Reformed theories.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#713
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#713
Rufus said:
Hey, Einstein, show me from the bible where something positive is said about Adam.

And where did you come up with Adam sweating great drops of blood in the Garden? You have chapter and verse for this remarkable "revelation"?
Click to expand...
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Of course, the ENTIRETY of the Bible must come into focus to obtain this "figure", including EVERY TYPE OF CHRIST noted in the Scriptures. Furthermore CHRIST HIMSELF.

Abraham. Moses. Samson (yes he is a remarkable type of Christ) Joshua. Every single person......and every single SITUATION without missing one. And it SHOULD TAKE dozens and HUNDREDS of hours of reverential effort to accomplish this task.

Of course, you fail to understand this requirement, as you likewise fail to comprehend even the simplest Biblical truth, including
the fact that Mary was NOT threatened, brutalized, and terrorized into becoming the person who became the mother of Christ Jesus.
The way that @Magenta believes it happened.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#714
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#714
Rufus said:
Hey, Einstein,
Click to expand...
And never forget Einstein.....Aaron is ALSO a type of Christ.
Do you actually understand why? I doubt it.

Num 16:47
And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
Num 16:48
And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#715
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#715
Kroogz said:
This is your first post to me:
Adam and Eve were of the natural world and I agree: they were in as much need of being born again as we
start out being. One difference I see is that they became children of wrath, whereas that is our starting point.
Click to expand...
That does not make sense. And yet again, the "natural man" business is to blame.
Satan and the fallen angels were not of the natural world and they "fell to their deaths" all the same.
And they certainly do not need a change of state, nor do they obtain one.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#716
May 21, 2022
5,724
2,234
113
#716
Rufus said:
Sister, don't pay cv5 any mind. He's totally shot. He called me a liar today for posting three solid proof texts out of the Psalms that teach God hates sinners. He more likely meant that God is the liar but he couldn't say such a thing without taking much heat.
Click to expand...
"God hates sinners."

Another sad, wrong, illogical conclusion of the Calvinism/Reformed Doctrine ripping a statement from its surrounding text, Calvinism yes a perjorative label for an un-bibilical system.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#717
May 21, 2022
5,724
2,234
113
#717
phil36 said:
Would you say that God is unjust to pass over his enemies while he shows mercy to those whom from all eternity he has decided to save?
Click to expand...
The language and phrasing is a marvel.
People of this school all speak the same.:rolleyes:

No I would say you impugn the righteous, holy, loving character of God along with denying the words of Jesus.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#718
Jul 3, 2015
59,709
29,057
113
#718
HeIsHere said:
Calvinism yes a perjorative label for an un-bibilical system.
Click to expand...
"Calvinist" is a perjorative some used to describe those they disagree with whether they are Calvinists or not.

HeIsHere said:
No I would say you impugn the righteous, holy, loving character of God along with denying the words of Jesus.
Click to expand...
You deny the words of Jesus to say the natural man needs no help from God.
That choosing to believe can come simply from the moral will of man.

What do you make of Jesus' words in this John passage?


John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Jesus very plainly states they could not believe, and that they were unable to
believe because God prevented it. Where is your free will doctrine in that?
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#719
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#719
HeIsHere said:
"God hates sinners."

Another sad, wrong, illogical conclusion of the Calvinism/Reformed Doctrine ripping a statement from its surrounding text, Calvinism yes a perjorative label for an un-bibilical system.
Click to expand...
Rufus said:
"God hates sinners."
======================================
Which interpreted means: God hates everybody but @Rufus . Maybe a couple of his hyper-Cal buddies too. But they are hanging by a thread.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#720
Nov 20, 2018
22,602
8,154
113
#720
Magenta said:
"Calvinist" is a perjorative some used to describe those they disagree with whether they are Calvinists or not.


You deny the words of Jesus to say the natural man needs no help from God.
That choosing to believe can come simply from the moral will of man.

What do you make of Jesus' words in this John passage?


John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Jesus very plainly states they could not believe, and that they were unable to
believe because God prevented it. Where is your free will doctrine in that?
Click to expand...
Another total fail to comprehend OT near-East thought, speech and writing patterns.
That is the Calvinist way.

BTW.....the key terms are "BELIEVED", "REVEALED". Which precede the consequences.

I would suggest a study of Pharaoh and the Exodus to get a grip on reality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.