Gods will vs mans free will

[Bruce_Leiter]

There are certain things which God allows Christians to work out for themselves. Exercise and diet are included. In other things which are beyond us, we ask God's help. It may or may not come, and I know from personal experience. But we can continue to pray and hope that God will hear and answer. So there is no conflict between God's will and man's free will. We are to freely choose to obey the Gospel. Salvation is offered to all.

My answer to your self-reliant and God-reliant division is 1 Thessalonians 5:17, "Pray without ceasing." We must seek God's will through prayer for small and large decisions, no matter what they are.

 

[cv5]

None of the above. The natural man is spiritually dead in sins, as we all are when we are born into this world by natural birth.

Eph 2:1-5 explains the transition of the natural man in becoming a spiritual man, especially verse 5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ. (by grace ye are saved).

All of those that were given to Christ by his Father were delivered by the blood of Christ with the promise of an inheritance of heaven.

Christ was a sacrifice to deliver those that his Father gave him, and that sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not an offering to mankind for their acceptance. (John 6:37-40) Those that his Father gave to him were chosen before the foundation of the world and predetermined to be adopted as his children, making them accepted (Eph 1:4-7)

There was a onetime deliverance with the promise of an eternal inheritance for God's people.

There are many deliverances for God's people as they sojourn here on earth such as: When they commit a sin, they separate themselves from God's fellowship because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his only begotten Son, as he bore the sins of God's people. There is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) when the child of God repents of the sin that he has committed.

There is an eternal deliverance (salvation) that is given by the grace of God for those that were given to his Son, and there is also a deliverance (salvation) that is gained by the good works of his children as they sojourn here on earth,

Rightly dividing the word of God requires an understanding the difference in our eternal salvation, and our salvations that we earn by our obedience to God's commandments.

Nope. Everyone is orbiting around this FALSE premise that the "natural man" is representative of ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.
And this term is used ONCE only BTW. One trick pony.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

======================================================================

It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
according to the exercise of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made to turn his
back on the CALL, turn his back on the TESTIMONY, turn his back on the WITNESSES, and ultimately
turn his back on the offer of salvation.

But this is not the state of all men. Those who CHOOSE to come to Jesus and walk in His light
are the SPIRITUAL MAN, one whom the Living God CHOOSES dwells with.

Jhn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, ***he will*** keep My word; and My Father will love him, and ***We will*** come to him and make Our home with him.


================================================================================

And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.
Thankfully, I do know exactly what is being said here. Lucky me huh?

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

 

[cv5]

None of the above. The natural man is spiritually dead in sins, as we all are when we are born into this world by natural birth.

Eph 2:1-5 explains the transition of the natural man in becoming a spiritual man, especially verse 5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ. (by grace ye are saved).

All of those that were given to Christ by his Father were delivered by the blood of Christ with the promise of an inheritance of heaven.

Christ was a sacrifice to deliver those that his Father gave him, and that sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not an offering to mankind for their acceptance. (John 6:37-40) Those that his Father gave to him were chosen before the foundation of the world and predetermined to be adopted as his children, making them accepted (Eph 1:4-7)

There was a onetime deliverance with the promise of an eternal inheritance for God's people.

There are many deliverances for God's people as they sojourn here on earth such as: When they commit a sin, they separate themselves from God's fellowship because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his only begotten Son, as he bore the sins of God's people. There is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) when the child of God repents of the sin that he has committed.

There is an eternal deliverance (salvation) that is given by the grace of God for those that were given to his Son, and there is also a deliverance (salvation) that is gained by the good works of his children as they sojourn here on earth,

Rightly dividing the word of God requires an understanding the difference in our eternal salvation, and our salvations that we earn by our obedience to God's commandments.

HERE is the "natural man" right here buddy........

Psa 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Yes, the fool made the WILLFUL DECISION (said in his heart) to DENY GOD.
Consequently, he (and "they", all who share the same evil sentiment) became corrupt, do abominable works, and does no good.

================================================================================================

Yup. And that is precisely what the Pharisees did. And Chorazin and Bethsaida. And a whole lot of others down the line.
And up the line too back in the days of old Israel.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Absolutely yes. "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning, calling him an unclean devil and son of perdition, meaning doomed to destruction. No child of God is doomed to destruction.

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9

John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”

Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

With thanks to @mailmandan .

Just curious, how do you define "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". And do you believe that Jacob who is surnamed Israel represents spiritual Israel?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nope. Everyone is orbiting around this FALSE premise that the "natural man" is representative of ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.
And this term is used ONCE only BTW. One trick pony.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

======================================================================

It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
according to the exercise of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made to turn his
back on the CALL, turn his back on the TESTIMONY, turn his back on the WITNESSES, and ultimately
turn his back on the offer of salvation.

But this is not the state of all men. Those who CHOOSE to come to Jesus and walk in His light
are the SPIRITUAL MAN, one whom the Living God CHOOSES dwells with.

Jhn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, ***he will*** keep My word; and My Father will love him, and ***We will*** come to him and make Our home with him.


================================================================================

And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.
Thankfully, I do know exactly what is being said here. Lucky me huh?

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

The world/natural man cannot receive the Spirit of truth John 14:17.

 

[cv5]

The world/natural man cannot receive the Spirit of truth John 14:17.

Except for Rahab the doomed Canaanite, the doomed Gibeonite Hivites, Naaman the Syrian, the widow of Zarephath, and the Samaritan woman at the well. All pre-resurrection pre-new covenant of course.

Somehow they broke out of your condemnation prison and into the book of life.
I would urge everyone everywhere to do the same.

 

[Magenta]

Just curious, how do you define "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". And
do you believe that Jacob who is surnamed Israel represents spiritual Israel?

None of that matters because not all of Israel or house of Jacob is saved, never was, and never will be.

So whether Judas belonged to that lineage is moot. He was never saved and
Scripture -in the very words of Jesus- makes that plain. Judas never believed.

 

[Rufus]

Well, at least I don't hate and despise the Jews.
I love the Jews with a special kind of love. They are the apple of God's eye after all.

But you Reformed types? You all have hated the Jews for a very long time.

Tragic. But not unexpected.

I hate the Jews because of their history that is revealed throughout the bible? It's just not politically correct to be truthful, is it?

But that's okay. I love the true Israel of God, i.e. Jesus Christ because he first loved me.

 

[Rufus]

Except for Rahab the doomed Canaanite, the doomed Gibeonite Hivites, Naaman the Syrian, the widow of Zarephath, and the Samaritan woman at the well. All pre-resurrection pre-new covenant of course.

Somehow they broke out of your condemnation prison and into the book of life.
I would urge everyone everywhere to do the same.

I can give a name to that "Somehow": YHWH. I know it goes against the grain of your man-centered, man-loving, man-exalting religion to give credit to God for his salvation -- but hey...I'm not looking to win accolades or applauses or approvals from men. I am constrained to give the glory to whom is the only one glory and praise is due.

 

[phil36]

Free will = true life, true existence

The lie of Satan is that there is no true life, that we are all robots who can NEVER make true choices.
To which @Rufus and @Magenta heartily agree.

In fact @Magenta has earlier stated that when the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, she did not nor could not give consent. Mary's will was not simply overridden and ignored, its that Mary had no will, at least any that produced the effect that God desired. Basically a shotgun impregnation on a 14 year old girl.

If nobody believes me I will find the old post.

Jhn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

This passage alone destroys the awful pretentions of the hyper-Calvinists.

Hi cv5,

So free will means true life/existence?

So what has the willngot to do with existence or life? I fail to see how you have substantiated your statement.

Oh, i agree hyper Calvinism is awful.

 

[phil36]

"Free" is normally an unnecessary adjective. It's a responsive term to some who falsely claim that it's in bondage. It just means the human will.

So is the human in bondage, basically a slave to sin?

 

[JohnRH]

So is the human in bondage, basically a slave to sin?

Yes.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Romans 6:17 (KJV)

 

[Magenta]

Yes.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Romans 6:17 (KJV)

Are you going to address my questions to you regarding this verse?
What do you say in regard to this John 12/Isaiah verse? It says they were unable to believe.
That means they could not. They had no "free will" in the matter at all. Can you see why?

John 12:38b-40

 

[phil36]

Yes.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Romans 6:17 (KJV)

I have to pint out that Paul is not making a statement about how the heart of stone is changed to a heart of flesh.. Or more to the point givien a new nature by the new birth. Paul is answeeing a very exact rhetorical question.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may
abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Then he expands in the rest of chapter 6.

The verse you have provided doesn't help your argument.

 

[JohnRH]

I have to pint out that Paul is not making a statement about how the heart of stone is changed to a heart of flesh.. Or more to the point givien a new nature by the new birth. Paul is answeeing a very exact rhetorical question.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may
abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Then he expands in the rest of chapter 6.

The verse you have provided doesn't help your argument.

I wasn't attempting to help an argument. I simply answered your question. And the verse does bear out that the unsaved man is a slave to sin.

 

[HeIsHere]

Nope. Everyone is orbiting around this FALSE premise that the "natural man" is representative of ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.
And this term is used ONCE only BTW. One trick pony.

Yes every verse is made into a blanket statement, again it is always because they want to avoid context.

It is well understood by theologians who actually employ hermeneutics to the passage that "context" is the Achilles heel of these Reformed/Calvinist tenets.

 

[HeIsHere]

If you don't mind, give me your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14.

On a very extremely simple level is Paul talking about the plan of salvation in this passage, why would he tell his audience they cannot understand/respond to the Gospel if they are already believers?

 

[HeIsHere]

I have to pint out that Paul is not making a statement about how the heart of stone is changed to a heart of flesh.. Or more to the point givien a new nature by the new birth. Paul is answeeing a very exact rhetorical question.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may
abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Then he expands in the rest of chapter 6.

The verse you have provided doesn't help your argument.

"Slave to sin" is idiomatic.

Does it mean that the non-believer cannot choose to not sin? No.
Does it mean a person cannot recognize their sinfulness? No.

So then what is the meaning the term "slave to sin" conveying in context of the passage, that is the question?

 

[HeIsHere]

Oh, i agree hyper Calvinism is awful.

All "calvinism" is awful ..... whether the lite version, regeneration before faith, or people cannot understand or believe the Gospel and God chooses who to enlighten while leaving others in their sin to the logical end of "calvinism" that God assigns people to perdition before they are born.

 

[cv5]

Yes every verse is made into a blanket statement, again it is always because they want to avoid context.

It is well understood by theologians who actually employ hermeneutics to the passage that "context" is the Achilles heel of these Reformed/Calvinist tenets.

Its more than that. It a massive ignorance and misapprehension of the OT and likewise near-East thought and communication patterns.