Gods will vs mans free will

[Lafftur]

Sorry I hit "post" too early on that first reply and had a little more to add.

It wasn't until lunch the next day that I even realized what happen, and it was at lunch that it hit me. "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!" Then and there I knew 2 things.
1. Whatever this was, it was from God.
2. Jesus Crist is His Son.

So in my case when I thought I was making "the choice" I wasn't saved and thought God was fake when trials hit, yet when I was saved I had no idea He was granting me repentance when it was taking place FOR REAL. So while I am not at all saying that you are wrong and I understand that for many it may work just like it did for you, but we have to be careful of exactly how big a role that choice actually plays in the big picture of salvation, and who does the credit for that choice truly belong to? That's it, just wanted to share my thoughts on that with you. Hope you have a great day.

Thank you for sharing your testimony in such a kind and loving way.

I believe everyone has to CHOOSE Jesus Christ as Savior Lord and King. He made a way for us where there was no way but, each of us has to CHOOSE to receive it.

I know I could NEVER save myself and NEVER have I claimed to have saved myself. I simply have stated that I and everyone must CHOOSE to receive all He has done for us.

I have CHOSEN to receive ALL that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead to give me…. Salvation, a new nature, spiritually alive, eyes to see and ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying, scriptures of God’s Word opened and understanding freely given, gifts of the Holy Spirit, a deep unquenchable passionate love for my Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ my Savior Lord and King, and the precious abiding companion counselor, teacher, guide, comforter Holy Spirit, God’s angels that minister to me as an heir of Salvation…. and the Kingdom of God that is coming!

 

[cv5]

Josh 24:19
19 Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God.

But Rahab DID serve the Lord....and lived. Remember her? The supposedly doomed Canaanite harlot of Jericho? And she made it perfectly clear how and why.

And the Gibeonites DID serve the Lord. Remember them? The supposedly doomed Hivites?
And they made it perfectly clear how and why.

So we can conclude that a bunch of doomed lobotomized spiritually blind soulless totally depraved Canaanites were vastly more spiritually enlightened than you are!

Bummer for you buddy.

 

[Lafftur]

According to 1 Cor 2:14, can the natural man make a choice to choose anything of a spiritual nature before he has been born of the Spirit?

Today is the day of salvation, harden not your hearts…. the seed of the sower fell on hardened ground and Satan snatched it away so they did not believe… some seed of the. Word of God fell on stony ground… some in ground with thorns and briers that choked it… some on good ground and it brought forth a harvest… 30, 60, and 100 fold!

It is pride that blinds the natural man but God knows how to humble us.

 

[cv5]

The only heresy peddlers around here are people like yourself who peddle a man-centered soteriology that exalts and glorifies man at the expense of God's glory, majesty, power and justice.

Your evil, wicked, cruel God dooms people before they were ever born without ever giving them a legit opportunity for salvation. In fact your evil, wicked, cruel God creates people for the very purpose of inevitably hurling on them into the lake of fire for eternity. They don't stand a chance.

So good luck with your preaching efforts.

 

[cv5]

Remember her? The supposedly doomed Canaanite harlot of Jericho? And she made it perfectly clear how and why.

Remember them? The supposedly doomed Hivites?
And they made it perfectly clear how and why.

So we can conclude that a bunch of doomed lobotomized spiritually blind soulless totally depraved Canaanites were vastly more spiritually enlightened than you are!

Bummer for you buddy.

But Rahab DID serve the Lord....and lived.
And the Gibeonites DID serve the Lord....and lived.

Fallen and doomed people who made the right choices. And what choice was that?
Choosing to cry out for mercy and seize the covenant of life, rather than certain annihilation in judgment.

Choosing to serve the God of Israel like Ruth, and abandoning your former life.

Choosing to serve the "Man of God" like the third Captain of 2 King 1:13, rather than die a fiery death like the others.

There you go @Rufus @Magenta . Try and shoehorn that into Reformed theology.

 

[cv5]

All I have been saying for months now on various threads is that just like the physically dead have no power to do anything in temporal reality, likewise the spiritually dead have no power to make choices contrary to their evil nature. The Israelites had no power to escape from their BONDAGE to Pharaoh; likewise the unregenerate man has no power to escape from the power of sin, from the power of the devil, from this world system. Since the volition resides in the heart of man, and the hearts of men are desperately wicked, sinful and deceitful, then obviously the volition, along with the other three faculties, is corrupt. You do understand that the hearts of men are filled with evil, right? There is nothing spiritually sound in man!

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

Paul basically said the same thing more succinctly:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh ,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV

If man's heart were spiritually sound, then why does God promise in the New Covenant to give new hearts to his people?

What? According to God, all you need to do is come to Him.
Done deal. Some people do, some people don't. And those that don't...... won't.

As in WILL not.....an act of FREE WILL.

Jhn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[PaulThomson]

Actually this isn't true. Boule is also used.

BoulE means counsel.

 

[phil36]

I'm a bit late into the conversation, but can i ask a question. What is free will? What does it actually mean?

 

[cv5]

I'm a bit late into the conversation, but can i ask a question. What is free will? What does it actually mean?

Free will = true life, true existence

The lie of Satan is that there is no true life, that we are all robots who can NEVER make true choices.
To which @Rufus and @Magenta heartily agree.

In fact @Magenta has earlier stated that when the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, she did not nor could not give consent. Mary's will was not simply overridden and ignored, its that Mary had no will, at least any that produced the effect that God desired. Basically a shotgun impregnation on a 14 year old girl.

If nobody believes me I will find the old post.

Jhn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

This passage alone destroys the awful pretentions of the hyper-Calvinists.

 

[cv5]

The only heresy peddlers around here are people like yourself who peddle a man-centered soteriology that exalts and glorifies man at the expense of God's glory, majesty, power and justice.

Somebody is peddling something here and somebody else is making a FREE WILL decision to turn him down.
And then of course the next chapter is Genesis 15.

Gen 14:21
And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

Gen 14:22
And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Gen 14:23
That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:

===================================================================================================

Which of course is why the Levites of Acts 4 divested themselves of their illegitimate land holdings.
And yes @Rufus @Magenta , you do not understand what is actually going on in Acts 4 and 5. That goes without saying, but I thought that I would do you a favor and say it anyway.

Act 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

Act 4:37
Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

 

[Cameron143]

BoulE means counsel.

It is more than merely counsel, as I'm sure you know. It is used in Acts 2:23, among other places, and represents a planned out event determined beforehand, and which always comes to pass. This is very different from thelema, which represents a preferred choice, but that doesn't always transpire.

 

[JohnRH]

I'm a bit late into the conversation, but can i ask a question. What is free will? What does it actually mean?

"Free" is normally an unnecessary adjective. It's a responsive term to some who falsely claim that it's in bondage. It just means the human will.

 

[HeIsHere]

I'm a bit late into the conversation, but can i ask a question. What is free will? What does it actually mean?

If the two words "free will" are not found in the Bible that means it does not exist, so I would not worry about it.

 

[JohnRH]

But Rahab DID serve the Lord....and lived.
And the Gibeonites DID serve the Lord....and lived.

Fallen and doomed people who made the right choices. And what choice was that?
Choosing to cry out for mercy and seize the covenant of life, rather than certain annihilation in judgment.

Choosing to serve the God of Israel like Ruth, and abandoning your former life.

Choosing to serve the "Man of God" like the third Captain of 2 King 1:13, rather than die a fiery death like the others.

There you go @Rufus @Magenta . Try and shoehorn that into Reformed theology.

Amen. And here are some more examples of unsaved people who choose to seek the Lord for salvation:

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Acts 16:29-30 (KJV)

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke 18:13 (KJV)

The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? John 4:28-29 (KJV)

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42 (KJV)

 

[HeIsHere]

"Free" is normally an unnecessary adjective. It's a responsive term to some who falsely claim that it's in bondage. It just means the human will.

I do think the word "free" is required as a qualifier, it means that a person is able to make a choice free from internal and external determinants and make a decision in that moment without causality, not speaking about soteriology, just the philosophical aspect.

It seems Calvinists/Reformed need to deny "free will" when it comes to believing and responding to the Gospel message, that is sacrosanct in their doctrine, response (belief in/faith in Jesus) by a human clearly creates a situation where we are saving ourselves to them because of they wrongly define God's sovereignty,

Yet it has been stated several times on several threads belief/faith is the instrument not the result we are saved by grace through faith.

As MacArthur preaches, people are preprogrammed to believe lies.... "When you give someone the gospel. Because it's the truth, they can't believe it."

Impressive how people defend this.

 

[cv5]

It seems Calvinists/Reformed need to deny "free will" when it comes to believing and responding to the Gospel message, that is sacrosanct in their doctrine, response (belief in/faith in Jesus) by a human clearly creates a situation where we are saving ourselves to them because of they wrongly define God's sovereignty,

Nobody can nor will "save themselves" though this red herring is often times used by Calvinists.

God is the prime mover. God already prepared the plan before the foundation of the world, because only He can.
God executed the plan in the fullness of time, because only He can. God Himself paid the full price, because only He can. God did all of the work, all of it, because only He can.

Why is this necessary?

Because eternal life is of infinite duration and is of infinite value. It is impossible for finite creatures to work for it or pay for it.
Only an infinite being has the resources to accomplish this task.

Which if course is why the lake of fire is eternal as well. Despite what @Magenta believes about annihilation.

 

[cv5]

I do think the word "free" is required as a qualifier, it means that a person is able to make a choice free from internal and external determinants and make a decision in that moment without causality, not speaking about soteriology, just the philosophical aspect.

It seems Calvinists/Reformed need to deny "free will" when it comes to believing and responding to the Gospel message, that is sacrosanct in their doctrine, response (belief in/faith in Jesus) by a human clearly creates a situation where we are saving ourselves to them because of they wrongly define God's sovereignty,

Yet it has been stated several times on several threads belief/faith is the instrument not the result we are saved by grace through faith.

As MacArthur preaches, people are preprogrammed to believe lies.... "When you give someone the gospel. Because it's the truth, they can't believe it."

Impressive how people defend this.

O bailed on MacArthur a long long time ago. Glad I did.

BTW, he says animals are basically mindless carbon based robots to be eaten. Real nice buddy.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And you would be wrong.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

======================================================================

It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made.

And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
======================================================================================

Does @Rufus rightly understand how these passages concatenate? No.
How about @Magenta ? No.

Too bad so sad.

You have just confirmed that, the people of God, those who have already been born of the Spirit understand spiritual things.

It is the natural man, who has not been born of the Spirit, that receiveth "NOT" the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[HeIsHere]

Nobody can nor will "save themselves" though this red herring is often times used by Calvinists.

I notice that as well.
But I am glad you have abandoned Reformed theology.
As most people testify it is bad for the soul.

 

[HeIsHere]

O bailed on MacArthur a long long time ago. Glad I did.

BTW, he says animals are basically mindless carbon based robots to be eaten. Real nice buddy.

I am so glad you have.
He is a mish of mash of contradictory ideas.