Gods will vs mans free will

[cv5]

That's your unsubstantiated pipe dream. That is certainly not the way Joshua characterized the Israelites in Egypt to wit:

Josh 24:2, 14
2 Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River and worshiped other gods...14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
NIV

Nor is it the way the Psalmist portrayed the ancient Hebrews in Egypt to wit:

Ps 106:6-7
6 We have sinned, even as our fathers did;
we have done wrong and acted wickedly.
7 When our fathers were in Egypt,
they gave no thought to your miracles;
they did not remember your many kindnesses,
and they rebelled by the sea, the Red Sea.
NIV

Anymore brilliant speculations?

It is not speculation to say that your attempts at exegesis are little more than incoherent bafflegab.

 

[cv5]

Whoa...We're talking about the Exodus out of Egypt here. You're switching topics here because you can't answer my questions. The Israelites were powerless to leave Egypt on their own. And spiritually dead people today are powerless to choose to be saved -- to choose to override their sin nature, their love for the world, their love for pleasures, their love for money, their love for their darkness, their hatred for God and for His Son, etc. Sinners can no more change their nature than the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin.

Time for you to answer MY questions:

Is Jesus wrongly characterizing and then judging the children of Israel here? Who is liable? God?
Are you saying that there is NO FREE WILL, therefore Israel cannot RIGHTLY be judged, and therefore Jesus is an UNJUST judge and evil? And that all of the horrible things that happened to Israel are ultimately GOD'S FAULT, because he DRAGGED the Israelites out of Egypt AGAINST THEIR WILL?

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

===========================================================================================

Are these offers legitimate.....or an hoax and a fraud? Are you saying that God is a villain, there is no FREE WILL choice available, there is no COMING and no GIVING, salvation is NOT FREE, there is NO HONEST LEGITIMATE OFFER OF SALVATION, and ultimately God going to do a rug-pull and everybody goes to the lake of fire?

Rev 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

=========================================================================================

What's next? Are you going to BLAME GOD because HE made some people thirsty and others not?
Because if you are foolish enough to do so, you would be in some very bad Satanic company.
Because THAT is the FALSE accusation of the evil one.

God is PURE GOOD, never evil, and utterly unblameable. Don't you ever forget it.

 

[Rufus]

I understand what you're saying and I really want to make sure you understand I'm not disagreeing with you here or trying to correct you. I just want to share with my view on the choice you're talking about here, who get's the credit for it, and how much power is truly in this choice in the big picture.

I do understand what you mean and I do not disagree that we do make choices and the Bible tells us very clearly that we are to choose who we will serve, and we are free to make whatever choice we want to. However the way you worded it here makes it almost sound as if you're saying it is our choice that saves us and not God. Do you really think God is subservient to mans choice? I understand why it does seem that way on the surface, I used to think the same way when I was first saved and this train of thought led me straight to the "we can lose salvation" falsehood. I couldn't reconcile how on earth I start with free will and then choose Jesus and be born again and then be made a slave and not be able to CHOOSE to be unborn again if I desired sometime in the future. I'd always qualify my belief in this with "I could never walk away from Him, and don't see how anyone else could either, but I do believe I could be unsaved if I wanted to".

I was on the same page, "I choose" to be saved. I lifted my choice and free will way too high and thought of Gods power way to low. Then I got to thinking about how I was saved and realized that I didn't choose a dang thing. As a matter of fact when I did make the choice the first time I was nothing but a false convert that really liked the "idea" of Jesus, but lived in the real world with bills to pay. I was not saved when I made "the choice".

Then I had a trial hit that flipped my world upside-down and left me broken on the outside to match my shattered inside. I got low. I thought about suicide uncontrollably every 5 minutes for 2 solid years. I wanted to die so bad I could barely stand it, and the only thing that kept me from acting on these feelings were my 2 sons. I just couldn't leave them growing up with "my dad killed himself" for the rest of their lives.

One day all of this stuff came to the surface when I was at home alone. At this point I didn't believe God was real anymore, it's not that I was mad at Him or hated Him, but I was in a bad way and He didn't help, I thought I was a Christian, but God wasn't helping and I wasn't going to pretend anymore. So when I had reached the end of my power and saw "me" for the pathetic and hopeless waste that I was I hit my knees. I didn't cry out "Jesus" or "God I choose You!!". Nope UI hit my knees saying "I can't do this anymore" and woke up the next day all NEW.

Wow! What an awesome and edifying testimony to God's goodness, mercy, compassion, faithfulness and truthfulness. I believe every Christian -- every believer down through the centuries have had their own unique Road-to-Damascus type salvation experience. You certainly did, I know I did, Paul did and even the ancient Israelites in Egypt did after they were "baptized into Moses and the Red Sea".

Thank you so much for sharing.

 

[Rufus]

It is not speculation to say that your attempts at exegesis are little more than incoherent bafflegab.

Even a little child would be able to understand the passages I quoted. Perhaps one day when you humble yourself as a child, God will bless you with understanding as well.

 

[Magenta]

Wow! What an awesome and edifying testimony to God's goodness, mercy, compassion, faithfulness and truthfulness. I believe every Christian -- every believer down through the centuries have had their own unique Road-to-Damascus type salvation experience. You certainly did, I know I did, Paul did and even the ancient Israelites in Egypt did after they were "baptized into Moses and the Red Sea".

Thank you so much for sharing.

I hope @HeIsHere sees Jim's testimony and comes to accept the very Biblical FACT that God does deal
with different individuals differently, and He is by no means unfair for doing so. More it is a case of her
being ridiculous to think she is in any kind of position to pass judgment on God. What a sense of
entitlement! She could also read her Bible and keep her eyes open so she can see all the different ways
God revealed Himself to different people. Maybe squint a little to help engage and activate her free will.

Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, it is God’s choice to save us or not to save us…

God has chosen to save all of us but…

He will not save us unless we also choose Him (Jesus Christ) as Savior Lord and King…

God is Love… He loves us and desires us to love Him too. However, love MUST have a choice. If there is NO CHOICE then, there is NO LOVE.

According to 1 Cor 2:14, can the natural man make a choice to choose anything of a spiritual nature before he has been born of the Spirit?

 

[cv5]

Wow! What an awesome and edifying testimony to God's goodness, mercy, compassion, faithfulness and truthfulness. I believe every Christian -- every believer down through the centuries have had their own unique Road-to-Damascus type salvation experience. You certainly did, I know I did, Paul did and even the ancient Israelites in Egypt did after they were "baptized into Moses and the Red Sea".

Thank you so much for sharing.

Could Hillary Clinton CHOOSE today to receive God's forgiveness, goodness and mercy?
I mean right now......today? I mean its all over CNN.....Hillary is now a raving Bible thumper.

Or is God at fault because He did not call loudly or often enough?
I mean, she has a Bible available anywhere all the time just like everybody else. Right?

And if she persistently chooses the lie of Satan, why does God not simply lobotomize her and do her a favor?

 

[cv5]

Even a little child would be able to understand the passages I quoted. Perhaps one day when you humble yourself as a child, God will bless you with understanding as well.

What did you think? That everybody around here are Biblically illiterate rubes and that Korah and Dathan selling Reformed theology golden calves will be enough to drag us back to Egypt?

 

[Magenta]

According to 1 Cor 2:14, can the natural man make a choice to choose anything of a spiritual nature before he has been born of the Spirit?

You know, many say he, the natural man, can, while Scripture says he can't. I'll go with Scripture.

 

[Rufus]

Time for you to answer MY questions:

Is Jesus wrongly characterizing and then judging the children of Israel here? Who is liable? God?
Are you saying that there is NO FREE WILL, therefore Israel cannot RIGHTLY be judged, and therefore Jesus is an UNJUST judge and evil? And that all of the horrible things that happened to Israel are ultimately GOD'S FAULT, because he DRAGGED the Israelites out of Egypt AGAINST THEIR WILL?

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

===========================================================================================

Are these offers legitimate.....or an hoax and a fraud? Are you saying that God is a villain, there is no FREE WILL choice available, there is no COMING and no GIVING, salvation is NOT FREE, there is NO HONEST LEGITIMATE OFFER OF SALVATION, and ultimately God going to do a rug-pull and everybody goes to the lake of fire?

Rev 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

=========================================================================================

What's next? Are you going to BLAME GOD because HE made some people thirsty and others not?
Because if you are foolish enough to do so, you would be in some very bad Satanic company.
Because THAT is the FALSE accusation of the evil one.

God is PURE GOOD, never evil, and utterly unblameable. Don't you ever forget it.

All I have been saying for months now on various threads is that just like the physically dead have no power to do anything in temporal reality, likewise the spiritually dead have no power to make choices contrary to their evil nature. The Israelites had no power to escape from their BONDAGE to Pharaoh; likewise the unregenerate man has no power to escape from the power of sin, from the power of the devil, from this world system. Since the volition resides in the heart of man, and the hearts of men are desperately wicked, sinful and deceitful, then obviously the volition, along with the other three faculties, is corrupt. You do understand that the hearts of men are filled with evil, right? There is nothing spiritually sound in man!

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

Paul basically said the same thing more succinctly:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh ,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV

If man's heart were spiritually sound, then why does God promise in the New Covenant to give new hearts to his people?

 

[Rufus]

What did you think? That everybody around here are Biblically illiterate rubes and that Korah and Dathan selling Reformed theology golden calves will be enough to drag us back to Egypt?

You see what I mean: You saw "golden calves" in those two crystal clear passages. Not a good sign for you...

 

[cv5]

You see what I mean: You saw "golden calves" in those two crystal clear passages. Not a good sign for you...

Really? Well maybe you had better realize that everybody isn't easy pickings for heresy peddlers looking to crowd Satan's paddock.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You know, many say he, the natural man, can, while Scripture says he can't. I'll go with Scripture.

I agree with you on that one.

 

[cv5]

All I have been saying for months now on various threads is that just like the physically dead have no power to do anything in temporal reality, likewise the spiritually dead have no power to make choices contrary to their evil nature. The Israelites had no power to escape from their BONDAGE to Pharaoh; likewise the unregenerate man has no power to escape from the power of sin, from the power of the devil, from this world system. Since the volition resides in the heart of man, and the hearts of men are desperately wicked, sinful and deceitful, then obviously the volition, along with the other three faculties, is corrupt. You do understand that the hearts of men are filled with evil, right? There is nothing spiritually sound in man!

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

Paul basically said the same thing more succinctly:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh ,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV

If man's heart were spiritually sound, then why does God promise in the New Covenant to give new hearts to his people?

And you would be wrong. Wrong about accusing God of being evil.

UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.

FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.

Case closed.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

os 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

==============================================================================================

BTW....don't let this happen to you. Wrong accusing God of being evil that is. And then hiding the true gospel message.

Mat 25:24
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

 

[cv5]

I agree with you on that one.

And you would be wrong.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

======================================================================

It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made.

And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
======================================================================================

Does @Rufus rightly understand how these passages concatenate? No.
How about @Magenta ? No.

Too bad so sad.

 

[Magenta]

All I have been saying for months now on various threads is that just like the physically dead have no power to do anything in temporal reality, likewise the spiritually dead have no power to make choices contrary to their evil nature. The Israelites had no power to escape from their BONDAGE to Pharaoh; likewise the unregenerate man has no power to escape from the power of sin, from the power of the devil, from this world system. Since the volition resides in the heart of man, and the hearts of men are desperately wicked, sinful and deceitful, then obviously the volition, along with the other three faculties, is corrupt. You do understand that the hearts of men are filled with evil, right? There is nothing spiritually sound in man!

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

Paul basically said the same thing more succinctly:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh ,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV

If man's heart were spiritually sound, then why does God promise in the New Covenant to give new hearts to his people?

Isaiah 1:4-5 Alas, O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children of depravity! They have forsaken the LORD; they have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him. Why do you want more beatings? Why do you keep rebelling? Your head has a massive wound, and your whole heart is afflicted.

 

[cv5]

All I have been saying for months now on various threads is that just like the physically dead have no power to do anything in temporal reality, likewise the spiritually dead have no power to make choices contrary to their evil nature. The Israelites had no power to escape from their BONDAGE to Pharaoh; likewise the unregenerate man has no power to escape from the power of sin, from the power of the devil, from this world system. Since the volition resides in the heart of man, and the hearts of men are desperately wicked, sinful and deceitful, then obviously the volition, along with the other three faculties, is corrupt. You do understand that the hearts of men are filled with evil, right? There is nothing spiritually sound in man!

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

Paul basically said the same thing more succinctly:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh ,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV

If man's heart were spiritually sound, then why does God promise in the New Covenant to give new hearts to his people?

Still no answers huh? This of course would be inevitable in your case.

 

[Rufus]

Really? Well maybe you had better realize that everybody isn't easy pickings for heresy peddlers looking to crowd Satan's paddock.

The only heresy peddlers around here are people like yourself who peddle a man-centered soteriology that exalts and glorifies man at the expense of God's glory, majesty, power and justice.

 

[Rufus]

Still no answers huh? This of course would be inevitable in your case.

I don't have time to spend trying to make sense out of incoherent posts. I have another Joshua goodie for you since you didn't like the first two I provided:

Josh 24:19
19 Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God.
NASB

So, Einstein, answer me this: Why did God give Israel his Law that required perfect obedience when he knew it would be impossible for them keep his commandments? Why didn't the Jews just choose to serve YHWH and keep his covenant?

 

[cv5]

I don't have time to spend trying to make sense out of incoherent posts.

An eternity would not be enough for you. And perfectly understandable.