Gods will vs mans free will

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glf

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Mar 18, 2023
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I love the Exodus story and much of what leads up to it... Jacob and Rachel and Leah and his twelve sons... how the Hebrew people ended up in Egypt, all about Joseph etc. And in reading through the ten plagues, we do see that Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times before God hardened it. In fact you could say that God simply hardened it further. It is God who opens and closes people's hearts, though. “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” People do it to themselves, also, but make no mistake about it, nobody is born with a heart turned to God. There are none righteous, all have turned away. To hear some speak? Yikes. Such Scriptural truths do not apply to them. They kick and scream against what the Bible says of the natural man. And they hate those that tell the truth about such matters.

True sadly. We all like sheep have gone astray to our own way. There is none righteous, no not one. At least not until Jesus and the Holy Spirit turns our hearts back to the Lord with forgiveness and by faith.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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That's hard for me to hear from you, whom I look up to and who has always been a beacon of light for God's grace and love here at Christian chat. I suspect I missed some of what has been going on and for that I'm truly sorry! The Lord continue to hold you close to his heart, living and walking in you while sharing his wisdom, which has been obvious to many of us who've had the honor of your comments and insights. PTL! in Jesus' name, our God and King, both now and forever!
That is very sweet of you to say, thank you so much for blessing me with your very kind words. I do realize that many who may see some of these exchanges are unaware of much of the back stories, which go back into other threads as well, threads that pre-date this one. That is why I take the time to recount some of it... so you know why some things of these things are said.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Did the ancient Israelites in Egypt have "freewill" to walk away from their bondage to Pharaoh?
UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.

FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.

Case closed.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.

FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.

Case closed.
Agree absolutely, you nailed it!
Yet there really was no case ... it kinda reads like a show trial, no real weighty evidence from scripture fully expounded that supports a person is born unable/incapable of responding to the truth of the Gospel message when presented.

Jesus stated "strive to enter through the narrow gate" but He really did not mean it, no what he meant was you are corpse immobile on the floor.
Who knew even back then Jesus was using double speak.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Yet there really was no case ... it kinda reads like a show trial, no real weighty evidence from scripture fully expounded that supports a person is born unable/incapable of responding to the truth of the Gospel message when presented.
I have yet to see a Scripture showing we have free will. And I know why. It's because there are none.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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True sadly. We all like sheep have gone astray to our own way. There is none righteous, no not one. At least
not until Jesus and the Holy Spirit turns our hearts back to the Lord with forgiveness and by faith.

From Romans 6:19-21 You used to offer your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness when you were slaves to sin. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .:)
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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This does NOT say they are born "sinless". If we are going to play the game then the rules need to be the same for both. This states the physically obvious, but does not say that mankind is born in a state of sinlessness. Not at all. Again I find it insane to be on a Christian site, debating if men are born sinless. Especially born again and having God open my eyes to the truth, this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen a professing Christian try to assert. That we are born sinless and in 100% perfect shape with God? It just isn't true man. Sorry, but we come into this world spiritually dead, this means disconnected from God. We come out broken and that's just the truth man. I reject the scripture you provided says what you assert it says.
We can't really build this kind of doctrine on 1 scripture anyway.
Your emotional outburst and mere assertions are not evidence that you are correct. You need to do better to be to any degree persuasive.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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This is a complicated question, but basically God works His will always, even employing the actions of men and angels, good or evil, to bring His will to pass.
Could you be more forthright, please. Please answe with a Yes or a No... and then qualify with buts and ifs.

PaulThomson said:
So, do you think God desires/wills everything that ever happens?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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BEFORE he fell he had the power to do that. He wasn't made broken and fallen, in a broken and fallen world. We are born with the very nature to sin.
If Adam though perfect was able eventually to sin, there is absolutely no reason to presume that we had to be conceived and/or born imperfect for us eventually to sin.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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OH NO! God does FORCE his will on us! And look what this passage says:

Ezek 36:22-27
22 "Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD," It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 "And I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
NASB

Look at that! He did it again. God forcing his chosen, covenant robots to walk in his ways and obey him. Who would have ever thunk?
There are many ways to cause someone to do X without unilaterally imposing the action on them.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Hmm...It didn't work like that when God rescued the ancient Israelites from Egypt. In fact, after Moses confronted Pharaoh for the fist time, and Pharaoh responded by turning up the heat on his slaves, the Jews wanted nothing to do with being rescued. BUT...as you probably know, God that unjust tyrant"forced" the rescue mission on them anyhow.

Salvation is not about man making a choice; but rather God making a choice to redeem a people for himself thereby making good on his promise to Abraham. God does not elect to save any sinner on the basis of any merit in the sinner (e.g. his good choice); but rather for his own sake, purpose and glory he saves his chosen people.
No Israelite performed the passover and left Egypt without freely choosing to leave. Moses' subsequent plagues persuaded many naysayers to trust Yahweh and follow Moses out.
 
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God’s Will is that man would choose Life.

Man’s freewill is that man can choose Life or Death.

Personally, I choose God’s Will… I choose Life…. and we all know Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The LIFE. There is NO Life apart from Jesus Christ.

I choose Jesus Christ.
It hurts that someone can even choose not to believe in God, mock God etc. People violates the freewill. I choose to live according to God's will too
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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If Adam though perfect was able eventually to sin, there is absolutely no reason to presume that we had to be conceived and/or born imperfect for us eventually to sin.
What?

 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Could you be more forthright, please. Please answe with a Yes or a No... and then qualify with buts and ifs.

PaulThomson said:
So, do you think God desires/wills everything that ever happens?
You will have to define desire and will for me. Are they the same? Are they different?

If you can give me definitions, I can answer according to your understanding of these terms.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Really bad theology here at best, and heretical at worst.

You in essence rescued yourself because you were smarter or just a better person than those that reject Him?
I know, right? Possibly hundreds of verses about God and/or Jesus rescuing us, saving us, but ask a free willer, and the answer is, no, Jesus did not rescue me! One must wonder why one would deny the unmerited love and grace God pours out on us through salvation.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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Oregon
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The Lord wasn't looking for people's religion on Passover night, nor was He
looking for people's piety and/or their conduct . He was looking for just one
thing, and one thing only: the blood.

That being the case, then had a Jewish family failed to apply the blood in the
proper manner, their first-born son would've been slain. On the other hand;
were an Egyptian family careful to apply the blood in the proper manner,
their son would've been spared because the The Lord is neither biased nor
prejudiced.

Along that same line; Jesus' blood will protect anybody and everybody who
applies it in the proper manner because he died for all; no exceptions
regardless of age, race, gender identity and/or religious affiliation. But many
won't be protected by his blood, because they will neglect to apply it at all,
let alone properly.

FAQ: What might be the proper way to apply Christ's blood?

REPLY: Well; you could start with an RSVP by speaking up and letting God
know you'd like to take advantage of His son's death to protect yourself from
retribution.
_
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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You will have to define desire and will for me. Are they the same? Are they different?

If you can give me definitions, I can answer according to your understanding of these terms.
Biblically will and desire are the same. Greek: thelein and thelEma.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
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The Lord wasn't looking for people's religion on Passover night, nor was He
looking for people's piety and/or their conduct . He was looking for just one
thing, and one thing only: the blood.


That being the case, then had a Jewish family failed to apply the blood in the
proper manner, their first-born son would've been slain. On the other hand;
were an Egyptian family careful to apply the blood in the proper manner,
their son would've been spared because the The Lord is neither biased nor
prejudiced.


Along that same line; Jesus' blood will protect anybody and everybody who
applies it in the proper manner because he died for all; no exceptions
regardless of age, race, gender identity and/or religious affiliation. But many
won't be protected by his blood, because they will neglect to apply it at all,
let alone properly.


FAQ: What might be the proper way to apply Christ's blood?

REPLY: Well; you could start with an RSVP by speaking up and letting God
know you'd like to take advantage of His son's death to protect yourself from
retribution.
_
Amen.