Gods will vs mans free will

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113

Biblical truth concerning the natural man: The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Flesh serves the law of sin. Good itself does not dwell in me. :)
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
307
130
43
70
According to my understanding of scripture:
There is no absolute free will as there is no absolute preordination. The truth is found somewhere between the two and that's why there is such confusion regarding this topic. If our every act and thought has been preordained by the Lord, that would mean that he is the ultimate respecter of persons and that he is the creator of evil. Both are impossible to the Lord's divine nature. In James 1: 13-15, we're told, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." We see by this scripture that the Lord does not make us to be tempted, nor forces us to sin, so we're each tempted when our own lusts entice us. This then leads us to sin according to 1 Jn 3: 4. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Does this mean that I'm ruled by my free will alone, at least until I sin? No, because we learn from Rom 5: 12-14, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. This we received for Adam because of his sin. When we give ourselves to sin we become the slaves to our sins as revealed by Jesus in Jn 8:34, "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Let me add here that we inherited an easeness to sin from Adam, which even before the law was given to Moses, Adam's descendants died because by him; sin entered into the world and death by sin came unto all men for all have sinned. In Rom 2: 12, we're told, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law;"
Why would the Lord do that to us, you might ask? The Lord is eternal and he wanted his loved ones to abide with him in eternity! But even the most adament, person who refuses to sin, would sooner or later commit a sin that would bring the curse of death, required by the Lord's holy and just nature. So he made us in such a way that we'll sin sooner rather than later. He had a plan that would allow him to forgive us ahead of eternity, thereby ensuring that we'd be with him forever, without forsaking his qualities of absolute justicce and holiness. So it's easy for us to sin by our Adam given natures, called by some, original sin, and once we do we become servents to sin. The Lord also wants us to want him and to want to be holy as he is holy.
For this he uses faith, in those who will turn to him for that eternal forgiveness, Thus, "many are called, but few are chosen." The chosen are those who respond the the Spirit's call and conviction of sin by turning to the Lord Jesus for forgiveness. The Holy Spirit's job as revealed to us in Jn 16: 8-9, "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;" For those who do not believe upon Jesus and who are being ministered by a member of the body of Christ, he calls and convicts them of their sins. If they respond with a sorrow after the world, they reject that call and are not chosen. If they respond with a godly sorrow leading them to repentance and believe the word of God being ministered unto them; Jesus puts a mustard seed of faith in their souls and the Holy Spirit baptizes them into the body of Christ and indwells their spirits, making them to be born again. Spiritual growth is now possible via scripture which the Hoy Spirit illuminates, here a little, and there a little. With illumination, the Lord fulfils the promise of the New Covenant, by writing his commandments upon the table of their hearts and minds which purifies their conscience to see sin as he does, little by little. This transforms the faithful by the renewing of their minds to perceive sin as the Lord does, more and more. The Holy Spirit, in due course, will apply the "blood of Jesus to their conscience, purging their conscience from dead works to service the living God". He'll also increase their faith and make the scripture to be Jesus talking with them, Spirit to spirit and they will grow closer to him. We can see this in 1 Pet 2: 2-3, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rom 8:6, "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,"
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113
According to my understanding of scripture:
There is no absolute free will as there is no absolute preordination. The truth is found somewhere between the two and that's why there is such confusion regarding this topic. If our every act and thought has been preordained by the Lord, that would mean that he is the ultimate respecter of persons and that he is the creator of evil. Both are impossible to the Lord's divine nature. In James 1: 13-15, we're told, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." We see by this scripture that the Lord does not make us to be tempted, nor forces us to sin, so we're each tempted when our own lusts entice us. This then leads us to sin according to 1 Jn 3: 4. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Does this mean that I'm ruled by my free will alone, at least until I sin? No, because we learn from Rom 5: 12-14, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. This we received for Adam because of his sin. When we give ourselves to sin we become the slaves to our sins as revealed by Jesus in Jn 8:34, "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Let me add here that we inherited an easeness to sin from Adam, which even before the law was given to Moses, Adam's descendants died because by him; sin entered into the world and death by sin came unto all men for all have sinned. In Rom 2: 12, we're told, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law;"
Why would the Lord do that to us, you might ask? The Lord is eternal and he wanted his loved ones to abide with him in eternity! But even the most adament, person who refuses to sin, would sooner or later commit a sin that would bring the curse of death, required by the Lord's holy and just nature. So he made us in such a way that we'll sin sooner rather than later. He had a plan that would allow him to forgive us ahead of eternity, thereby ensuring that we'd be with him forever, without forsaking his qualities of absolute justicce and holiness. So it's easy for us to sin by our Adam given natures, called by some, original sin, and once we do we become servents to sin. The Lord also wants us to want him and to want to be holy as he is holy.
For this he uses faith, in those who will turn to him for that eternal forgiveness, Thus, "many are called, but few are chosen." The chosen are those who respond the the Spirit's call and conviction of sin by turning to the Lord Jesus for forgiveness. The Holy Spirit's job as revealed to us in Jn 16: 8-9, "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;" For those who do not believe upon Jesus and who are being ministered by a member of the body of Christ, he calls and convicts them of their sins. If they respond with a sorrow after the world, they reject that call and are not chosen. If they respond with a godly sorrow leading them to repentance and believe the word of God being ministered unto them; Jesus puts a mustard seed of faith in their souls and the Holy Spirit baptizes them into the body of Christ and indwells their spirits, making them to be born again. Spiritual growth is now possible via scripture which the Hoy Spirit illuminates, here a little, and there a little. With illumination, the Lord fulfils the promise of the New Covenant, by writing his commandments upon the table of their hearts and minds which purifies their conscience to see sin as he does, little by little. This transforms the faithful by the renewing of their minds to perceive sin as the Lord does, more and more. The Holy Spirit, in due course, will apply the "blood of Jesus to their conscience, purging their conscience from dead works to service the living God". He'll also increase their faith and make the scripture to be Jesus talking with them, Spirit to spirit and they will grow closer to him. We can see this in 1 Pet 2: 2-3, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Rom 8:6, "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,"

Romans 8:6-7 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113

Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Thank you for the inspiration! .:)
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63

Man's depravity vs God's Grace
:)
Those passages talk about man, not man's will.

The will, as distinct from the other parts or aspects of the immaterial part of a man (soul, imagination, heart, etc.) is the choosing-capacity or choosing-mechanism; the "chooser". It's function never changes. Whether the man is saved, unsaved, goes to heaven, or goes to hell, the functionality of the will remains unaltered.

What changes are the choice-options externally submitted to the man's will. The choice between getting saved or remaining unsaved is submitted to the unsaved man's will during his lifetime. That choice is externally (by God) withdrawn and no longer submitted to the saved man's will. He has other choice-options submitted to his will; such as walking according to the flesh or the Spirit, etc. When he dies & goes to heaven, the choice of staying in heaven or going to hell isn't submitted to his will; but his will continues to function as it always has since he was born in sin.

The will is just the will. A man in a prison cell can't choose to go on a drive in the country, but his "chooser" works just as freely/functionally/sovereignly as is did before he went to prison. The external options submitted to it are the only things that have changed. He can choose between either pacing to the front of the cell or to the back, because his will is functioning as it always has and always will.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113
The will, as distinct from the other parts or aspects of the immaterial part of a man (soul, imagination, heart, etc.) is the choosing-capacity or choosing-mechanism; the "chooser". It's function never changes. Whether the man is saved, unsaved, goes to heaven, or goes to hell, the functionality of the will remains unaltered.
So the will remains captive to the will of the devil after being saved and made a slave of righteousness rather than of sin?

Hmmmm. I doubt it. Very much.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113
What is your question?
Yes, God definitely intervenes with different people in different ways. But He gives each one a sufficient opportunity to be saved during their lifetime.
What of all who never ever even heard the Name above all names?
Do you mean like all the Old Testament era saints?
Thousands of years have passed since Jesus walked this world. Do you believe every single person since then has heard of Him?
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63
So the will remains captive to the will of the devil after being saved and made a slave of righteousness rather than of sin?
The will or the man? Where does the Bible say that the will is a captive or slave?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113
The will or the man? Where does the Bible say that the will is a captive or slave?
Still waiting for you to answer my question from days ago...

Try Timothy for starters. Good night.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63
Thousands of years have passed since Jesus walked this world. Do you believe every single person since then has heard of Him?
I haven't interviewed all of them and neither have any historians. I'm not sure I'd trust their testimony if I did.

But God gives each one a sufficient opportunity to be saved during their lifetime. God put each one of them in their time & place for the specific purpose that they should seek Him and find Him. A seeking sinner and a seeking Savior WILL meet; and that's no different from a person who's been in a Christian environment all their life.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63
Try Timothy for starters.
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim 2:26 (KJV)
"They" is the man, not the man's will.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
Adam CHOSE to sin knowing it was wrong before he fell.
Yes.

BEFORE he fell he had the power to do that. He wasn't made broken and fallen, in a broken and fallen world. We are born with the very nature to sin.

AFTER, he fell NONE of us have the power to reject sin. That's the reason Jesus came. To not only pay for our sins, but to save us from sins. To make us a NEW creation, that will lead us to ultimately have the total power NOT to sin.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113
I haven't interviewed all of them and neither have any historians.
Did you interview all of them to determine this? Weird how you acknowledge one side of it but not the other. You are lopsided!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,265
113
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim 2:26 (KJV)
"They" is the man, not the man's will.
That's one. Does that you mean you did not find any other in Tim? What about Hebrews? Your objection is silly. That's not his heart or his mind or his body it is the man you may as well say for anything. Silly silly silly. In bondage to sin yeah that is the will, the heart, mind, body and soul. You say it is not but offer zero evidence by way of Scripture verses to back your silly and baseless opinion.

“We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. “We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You
say we will be set free?” Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."


Have you not been set free? Bought with a price?

and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.