Gods will vs mans free will

[LifelongLearner]

You mean it appears for a time that God does not get His way. What God wills always comes to pass. That He allows for human and angelic agency doesn't keep His will from coming to pass. It actually allows God to do both good for those He loves, and frustrates the wicked. We are more than conquerors. God uses what Satan and others would use to harm us, and defeats them with it. In this way, He wins on our behalf employing the enemies methods and tools against them.

"That He allows for human and angelic agency doesn't keep His will from coming to pass."

Totally agree with that Cameron, i too think we have some agency but not free will. Genuine free will would mean having the ability to make an unfettered choice, which we don't have even in our current existence.

Currently think there might be at least two tiers of Salvation, a directly elected who God called possibly through his foreknowledge or just loving them, like he did David and some others. However, think there are just too many scriptures showing God would love all to be saved, so think it's possible for some to show enough promise for God to think they're worth the effort. There does seem to be a hierarchical system in Heaven, which i have no problems with, better the lowest seat in heaven than the top seat in hell. Personally think it's definitely to God's glory depriving satan of our company in hell, where possible.

Do like Pastor Mike Winger's videos very much and think he has a very healthy viewpoint on limited atonement:

https://biblethinker.org/responding-to-calvinist-arguments-for-limited-atonement/

 

[LifelongLearner]

It is rather amazing how much wool gathering gets done in the name of "free will" isn't it?

Burst out laughing at that sweet friend, just so true!

Feeling a lot better today, nosing around CChat a little but will have an early night. Blessings and hugs for now

 

[Magenta]

Burst out laughing at that sweet friend, just so true!

Feeling a lot better today, nosing around CChat a little but will have an early night. Blessings and hugs for now

Glad to hear you are feeling better! [[[[[Hugs]]]]] right back attcha...

 

[Magenta]

@LifelongLearner you know what else is amazing? So-called Christians opposing the fact
that those things said of the flesh do not apply to the natural man, but only to Christians!

I am just now updating the natural man panel... and I put some finishing touches on this one
earlier this morning also, after my pre-six a.m. rising LOL though it was started on the 4th.
I started three on that day and then had a moment of needing to step away from it all...

This verse was chosen after reading something @Rufus said, which I could not find again after navigating away...

From Colossians 1:9-12 We ask God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

 

[PaulThomson]

You mean it appears for a time that God does not get His way. What God wills always comes to pass. That He allows for human and angelic agency doesn't keep His will from coming to pass. It actually allows God to do both good for those He loves, and frustrates the wicked. We are more than conquerors. God uses what Satan and others would use to harm us, and defeats them with it. In this way, He wins on our behalf employing the enemies methods and tools against them.

We seem to agree then, that God does not get His own way in every instance all the time.

 

[LifelongLearner]

@LifelongLearner you know what else is amazing? So-called Christians opposing the fact
that those things said of the flesh do not apply to the natural man, but only to Christians!

I am just now updating the natural man panel... and I put some finishing touches on this one
earlier this morning also, after my pre-six a.m. rising LOL though it was started on the 4th.
I started three on that day and then had a moment of needing to step away from it all...

This verse was chosen after reading something @Rufus said, which I could not find again after navigating away...

From Colossians 1:9-12 We ask God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

Hadn't heard of The Natural Man term sweet friend, think this looks a decent article about it:

https://devotion.knowing-jesus.com/the-natural-man

Cheers Magenta, going offline soon to rest, hugs and Blessings for now

 

[Magenta]

Hadn't heard of The Natural Man term sweet friend, think this looks a decent article about it:

https://devotion.knowing-jesus.com/the-natural-man

Cheers Magenta, going offline soon to rest, hugs and Blessings for now

The Bible has much to say about the natural man...

Some if not most of it juxtaposed against the spiritual man (born again believer).

And here is a panel for/dedicated to you! I started it this morning...

I Pray The Lord My Soul To Keep

 

[Cameron143]

"That He allows for human and angelic agency doesn't keep His will from coming to pass."

Totally agree with that Cameron, i too think we have some agency but not free will. Genuine free will would mean having the ability to make an unfettered choice, which we don't have even in our current existence.

Currently think there might be at least two tiers of Salvation, a directly elected who God called possibly through his foreknowledge or just loving them, like he did David and some others. However, think there are just too many scriptures showing God would love all to be saved, so think it's possible for some to show enough promise for God to think they're worth the effort. There does seem to be a hierarchical system in Heaven, which i have no problems with, better the lowest seat in heaven than the top seat in hell. Personally think it's definitely to God's glory depriving satan of our company in hell, where possible.

Do like Pastor Mike Winger's videos very much and think he has a very healthy viewpoint on limited atonement:

https://biblethinker.org/responding-to-calvinist-arguments-for-limited-atonement/

I don't think merit is ever in mind when it comes to salvation. It's either grace or it is not. Thus, I don't personally find two tiers.
I appreciate the position as I would like to see all men saved; even the most wicked of us. I just don't find salvation apart from a first work of God. In fact, I see salvation as a very intimate coming of God to an individual wherein He reveals Himself and reveals Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

We seem to agree then, that God does not get His own way in every instance all the time.

Not exactly. I believe God's will is being accomplished in His relenting. You are limiting God's will to isolated incidents. I see God accomplishing His will in a series of events.

 

[PaulThomson]

Not exactly. I believe God's will is being accomplished in His relenting. You are limiting God's will to isolated incidents. I see God accomplishing His will in a series of events.

So, do you think God desires/wills everything that ever happens?

 

[Lafftur]

Great man-centered theology you have.

When the ancient Israelites were enslaved to Pharaoh in Egypt, why didn't they just exercise their "free will" and walk out of Egypt since they complained so much about their predicament?

The Israelites did exercise their free-will… they chose to stay until… Moses led them out.

 

[Lafftur]

Death entered the world as a result of man's sin. One man. His name was Adam.

Yes, true it was Adam CHOOSING to sin because Satan had deceived Eve and she CHOSE to eat the fruit and give it to Adam… choices…choices…choices…

 

[Magenta]

Yes, true it was Adam CHOOSING to sin because Satan had deceived Eve and she CHOSE to eat the fruit and give it to Adam… choices…choices…choices…

Quite different from saying it was Satan's doing...

Satan put us under the curse of Death which took Life as a choice away from us.

Men having and or making choices does not equate to having a will that is free. Scripture teaches something quite different
than that, since the devil has taken people captive to his will, and the natural man is a slave to sin until they are set free.

 

[Cameron143]

So, do you think God desires/wills everything that ever happens?

This is a complicated question, but basically God works His will always, even employing the actions of men and angels, good or evil, to bring His will to pass.

 

[Lafftur]

We do have the moral capacity to love and we have the moral capability/capacity to respond, understand and believe in the promises offered by Christ Jesus (in His Word) and His offering of the gift of salvation to whomever will believe in Him for it.

Thank you for your clear response.. it is something when we have to state the obvious both seen in reality and in scripture.

Actually, Truth is only known and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives understanding to the hearer when the gospel message of salvation in Jesus Christ alone is preached… faith arises.

Pride will block the Truth and never know it.

Humility will receive the Truth and love it and receive it unto salvation.

 

[Lafftur]

Quite different from saying it was Satan's doing...



Men having and or making choices does not equate to having a will that is free. Scripture teaches something quite different
than that, since the devil has taken people captive to his will, and the natural man is a slave to sin until they are set free.

Everyone has free-will. Everyone has a Day of Visitation.

I am very grateful to have CHOSEN Jesus Christ on the Day of Visitation He appointed for me.

Jesus Christ did NOT rescue me, He gave me a choice. I chose Him, LIFE.

 

[Magenta]

Everyone has free-will. Everyone has a Day of Visitation.

I am very grateful to have CHOSEN Jesus Christ on the Day of Visitation He appointed for me.

Jesus Christ did NOT rescue me, He gave me a choice. I chose Him, LIFE.

Day of visitation? Well, I don't see free will taught in Scriptures. They say the opposite.
A whole lot of verses have to be thrown over to accept the man made tradition of "free will."

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

 

[Rufus]

We seem to agree then, that God does not get His own way in every instance all the time.

Wow! You really don't read too swell. That's not what Cam said! Go back and read his post again.

 

[Lafftur]

Day of visitation? Well, I don't see free will taught in Scriptures. They say the opposite.
A whole lot of verses have to be thrown over to accept the man made tradition of "free will."

Man's depravity vs God's Grace

No, do NOT throw any scriptures overboard! Just ask the Holy Spirit for the Truth in sweet humility ask Him.

 

[Magenta]

No, do NOT throw any scriptures overboard! Just ask the Holy Spirit for the Truth in sweet humility ask Him.

I think you need to ask about free will, since it is not taught in the Bible.

What is taught is that the natural man is a slave to sin.

What is taught is that the natural man is hostile in his mind toward God.

What is taught is that none seek Him, and all are unrighteous. ALL!!!