Settling the Elect and Predestination Question

[posthuman]

as long we stay in the Faith, and do not become apostates falling away, then we are counted as one body of Christ's very elect.

per what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:24 about His "very elect", that shows those 'chosen' cannot be deceived. That's what that "if it were possible" phrase in that verse means. It is not possible that His "very elect" (chosen) can be deceived,

so it's totally possible for us to fall away and up to us to try very hard not to so we can become elect,

and it's impossible for the elect to fall away, because it's not up to them at all but God has chosen them?

 

[Hakawaka]

Paul says that he needs to be careful so he isnt disqualified after preaching to others.

The non-apostles are called elect and chosen as well all over the new testament including 1 Corinthians 1.

 

[Mem]

Jesus is asked, 'will only a few people be saved?" and answered,
Luke 13:24
"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able"

Many are given a ticket to board, called to the gate, but don't want to go through the turn style (that requires the validation of the ticket).

Rev 17:14
These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The general context of the New Testament regarding God's choice is not so much
about individual election. It seems to be more about a general election of the
Gentiles and and the failure of Israel.

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will
not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until
the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Paul is definitely referring to a corporate election concerning the Gentiles.

To then start discussing the election of any individual would be missing what
Paul was discussing.

there’s one chosen and predestined individual who would reconcile the worlds failure the promised seed of Abraham

“and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In thy seed is to be in Christ

“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

… Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:6-8, 16, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s predestination is talking about Christ and those who are in him the one individual chosen and fore ordained, become chosen and ordained and filled with his spirit not because we were chosen but because he is the chosen one and we then believe in him

He’s ordained and chosen and predestined we are believers in him

“but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,( he was fore ordained ) but was manifest in these last times for you, ( and revealed fornus who believe )

who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all men failed but Christ was always ordained king of all people

 

[Genez]

Jesus is asked, 'will only a few people be saved?" and answered,
Luke 13:24
"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able"

Luke 13:22-27​

​

Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. ​

Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”​

​

He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, ​

I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets ​

up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the ​

door for us.’​

​

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’​

​

“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’​

“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, ​

all you evildoers!’​

We need the context and background for what Jesus said.

Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”​

It says that Jesus was walking through Israeli villages.
The people living there were Jews, not Christians.
Jews who lived under the Law.

The Pharisees had corrupted Israel. Similar, like how the RCC had corrupted the Church before the reformation took place.

The Pharisees had poisoned the minds of the Jews with salvation by legalism.
The Pharisees were demanding that Jews could only be saved by doing prescribed works.
Specific works, works that the Pharisees invented and demanded of the people in order to be saved.

The works became so unbearable, that only a few could appear to fulfill them.
That is why that person asked if only a few would be able to be saved.

The narrow door is simply having faith in the Lord - (one way), not works (broad and wide).

Jesus was not speaking to Christians, but Jews who were under the Law and the the evil thumb of the legalistic Pharisees!

​

Matthew 23:2-4​

​

“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. ​

So you must be careful to do everything he (Moses) tells you. ​

But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. ​

​

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s ​

shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."​

​

​

​

This was the setting we find the Israelis were in when that person asked if only a few will be saved!

​

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s ​

shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."​

Only a few could dare to say they were saved!

Yes.... The Truth will make us free.

.

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

The following Scripture is Lord Jesus' prayer just before He was delivered up to be crucified. In it He points to the idea of ownership of one group of servants that originally belonged to The Father, which The Father gave to Him, these being Christ's Apostles. Then Jesus mentions a second group that believe on Him through the preaching of The Gospel by His Apostles. Thus with this, Jesus made a distinction between those 'chosen' vs. those 'called'...

John 17:1-23
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee:
2 As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.

That 2nd verse some go too far with, claiming that all who have believed on Jesus Christ in this world will remain in the Faith. God's Word, especially Apostles Paul and Peter, revealed that some believers had, and will fall away from the Faith. So this above is not meant as some 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men. Stay in the Faith to be one of those given to Christ.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent.

The Greek for "sent" is the word apostello. It's where the word 'apostle' comes from. To be sent, means to be in the office of Apostle, for Jesus also was sent by The Father directly.

4 I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Qwn self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.

Who might those be, that first belonged to The Father, and then He gave them to Lord Jesus? Those are about His 'chosen' "very elect" sent ones, Christ's Apostles. They keep God's Word as written. In Revelation 3, Lord Jesus even commended on those of the Church of Philadelphia because they kept His Word. Jesus had no rebuke for them.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Lord Jesus is speaking of Judas Iscariot who betrayed Him to the Priests and Pharisees. Judas was originally a 'chosen' sent one, but then he did not keep the Faith, but fell away because of greed, which this was prophesied of in the Old Testament prophets. Hebrews 6 reveals what happens to one given proof of the gifts of the world to come, but then turns away from Christ.

13 And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jesus is speaking of His 'chosen' very elect, His Apostles that were 'sent' into this world also. They represent Christ's leadership structure here on earth, as they were first in preaching The Gospel to wherever they were sent.

17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

Now in the 20th verse above, Lord Jesus is pointing to a second group of servants. These are believers that convert to Him through His Apostle's preaching of The Gospel. These represent the 'called'. And these can... fall away, because they do not represent the 'chosen' sent "very elect" office of an apostle. Not all are apostles, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12.

But Christ's desire is that ALL... believers on Him become part of His elect... that we all become one in Him and in The Father...

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
KJV

This means that as long we stay in the Faith, and do not become apostates falling away, then we are counted as one body of Christ's very elect.

So what will you do brethren with this coming pseudo-Christ which Jesus warned about in Matthew 24:23-26 that is soon to appear upon the world scene for the end of this world, proclaiming to be The Christ? We already know per Jesus that His "very elect" chosen ones that are sent today will not fall away to that coming false-Christ. But what about those of us who are 'called' only, and represent the majority of Christian believers today? We must keep His Word and stay in the Faith when tested by that coming false-Messiah, even to the death if delivered up like Jesus forewarned in Mark 13 and Revelation 2 to the Church of Smyrna.

I would like to know what your interpretations are of Ephesians 1 and Romans 8, both of which you seem to avoid. I quote two verses of Romans 8:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The key to these verses is the meaning of the word "foreknew." At this point, we need to follow the biblical meaning, not the cultural or rational meaning. What I mean is we need to find out what the word "know" means when it is used between persons. If you do such a word-study, you will find out that it means "an intimate love," not just knowing about someone by acquaintance. In other words, God loved us before creation, chose (predestined us), called us, justified us, and glorified us. Every believer has gone through those five stages and continue growing in them.

 

[DavyP]

Most of the rebuttals here on my starting posts on this thread don't address the matter that if everyone that has believed on Lord Jesus is ordained to be saved, then why did Christ and His Apostles admonish brethren to stay in the Faith, and even proclaim that some would fall away from the Faith (Luke 8:13; . What this reveals is that the 'once saved, always saved' idea is a man-made doctrine, even though it is obviously very popular with many here.

It's obvious some here are not interested in what God's Word teaches about some brethren turning from the Faith and falling away...

2 Peter 2:1
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
KJV

Do you see that phrase in 'red' brethren? Those Peter speaks of are those who were at one time believers on Lord Jesus Christ! Peter says they "... even denying the Lord That bought them." The man-made 'once saved, always saved' doctrine doesn't work there now does it? So yes, a believer on Jesus Christ CAN... turn away from the Faith and bring that "swift destruction" upon themsevles (on the day of Christ's future return).

Here is what many brethren are missing on this matter with some falling away from the Faith to do wickedness. Your likely not going to get this lesson in your Church, so I'd recommend paying attention to this Scripture. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul rebuked the Corinthian Church because there was a member within that congregation that was having sexual intercourse with his mother...

1 Cor 5:1
5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
KJV

Some try to smooth that wicked act by claiming he was only having sexual intercourse with his stepmother. That does not alleviate the sin at all, because it is against God's Law to have sexual intercourse with your stepmother also, or even you aunt, sister, etc.

1 Cor 5:2-5
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Paul said to cast that one out of the Church. But pay special attention in the next verses, because Paul is going to reveal a Salvation matter involving the future...

1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

If you are cast out of the Church because of something like that, it means to be cast out in the world without Christ, left on your own.

But notice Paul commands that they cast that one out in order for what? that that sinner's "... spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Well, just when would that be? That "day of the Lord Jesus" is put for the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign which begins on the day of His future return, that day called "the day of the Lord".

What would this mean for the believer who falls away from the Faith and is deceived because of it? Jesus showed the "unprofitable servant" will be cast to the "outer darkness" with the wicked, per Matthew 25:30.

Thusly, like Apostle Paul said in Phil 2:12, "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

 

[DavyP]

I would like to know what your interpretations are of Ephesians 1 and Romans 8, both of which you seem to avoid. I quote two verses of Romans 8:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The key to these verses is the meaning of the word "foreknew." At this point, we need to follow the biblical meaning, not the cultural or rational meaning. What I mean is we need to find out what the word "know" means when it is used between persons. If you do such a word-study, you will find out that it means "an intimate love," not just knowing about someone by acquaintance. In other words, God loved us before creation, chose (predestined us), called us, justified us, and glorified us. Every believer has gone through those five stages and continue growing in them.

You really should easily know the answer to your question by Bible study, and not just in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, for all believers on Jesus Christ are 'called', but not all of us are 'chosen', like Jesus said. So once again, I refer those with these type questions to what Lord Jesus said...

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
KJV

Acts 9:13-15
13 Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to Thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on Thy name."
15 But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
KJV

Acts 10:40-41
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed Him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.
KJV

Matt 19:27-30
27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?"
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
KJV

 

[DavyP]

is there a difference between God and the Son?

Only in that The Son is Who was born in the flesh to die on the cross, and be "Immanuel", which means 'God with us'. (See Matthew 1:23 and Isaiah 7:14.)

 

[Genez]

It's obvious some here are not interested in what God's Word teaches about some brethren turning from the Faith and falling away...

2 Peter 2:1
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
KJV

Do you see that phrase in 'red' brethren? Those Peter speaks of are those who were at one time believers on Lord Jesus Christ! Peter says they "... even denying the Lord That bought them." The man-made 'once saved, always saved' doctrine doesn't work there now does it? So yes, a believer on Jesus Christ CAN... turn away from the Faith and bring that "swift destruction" upon themsevles (on the day of Christ's future return).

You fail to see what is needed....
Turn to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

Now, look. There will be destruction for a believer. But? (read carefully)...
He will not lose his salvation.
But rather, his works will be burned up by fire, thus rendering his chances for rewards will be DESTROYED! = Destruction!

​

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, ​

which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, ​

silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown ​

for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. ​

​

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. ​

​

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—​

even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-15​

You can be a total loser in trying to live for Christ.
You can do all kinds of works in hoping to show the Lord how much you are willing to suffer...

But, if what you do is not according to sound doctrine? (according to gold, silver, and precious stones)
Your "wonderful" works will be utterly burned up...
Thus, seeing your desire to please the Lord destroyed... DESTRUCTION!

But, as far as your soul? Even being a total loser in assuming wrongly to do God's will?
It says?
You will remain "saved."

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—​

even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

Stick with what the Word says in other places, too, please.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son ​

and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:38-40​

God is not a man that He should become petty and vindictive when some believer refuses to do His will.
Evil that will not change must be utterly destroyed.

grace and peace ............

 

[PaulThomson]

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Actually, it is not clear which order of conditional we have here. We don't know the mood of the verb "to be", whether it is indicative or subjunctive, because the verb is inferred but not used.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were; or it is] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It could be saying, "if [it were] possible [but it isn't], they shall deceive the very elect.
Or it could be saying, "if [it is] possible [and it could be in some cases], they shall deceive the very elect.

So, the text neither proves nor disproves your theory.

 

[Kroogz]

Throughout those two posts (OP), I see nowhere covered the following word (in bold):

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath G138 ➔ from the beginning chosen G138 you to salvation through [en] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
(a verse written to the same people that in verses 2,3a of this SAME CONTEXT Paul exhorted them not to be "deceived [subjunctive]" by a false claim floating around--why would Paul exhort about such a thing if it were "not possible"... and I'm not suggesting they would "lose their salvation"... I'm just pointing out that, if this statement in the OP [quoted at top] is a blanket statement, Paul would have had NO reason to say in v.3a, "Let no man deceive you in any way" TO THESE VERY PEOPLE that he is also saying were "chosen" by God).







Strong's "G138 - haireō / heilato " -

-- HELPS Word-studies
138 hairéomai (a primitive verb, always in the Greek middle voice) – properly, lay hold of by a personal choice.

[The Greek middle voice emphasizes the self-interest of the one preferring (deciding) to grasp or take.]


-- †αἱρέομαι hairéomai, hahee-reh'-om-ahee; probably akin to G142 [ airo ]; to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer:—choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate ἕλλομαι héllomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.









[G138 - "hath chosen"--a whole 'nuther category...]

Exactly. He had a predesigned plan. From eternity past........To save those who will trust The Lord Jesus Christ through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. He is not picking and choosing some "special" people He is making BELIEVERS His Church.

You are a God send to this site Brother.

 

[Inquisitor]

I would like to know what your interpretations are of Ephesians 1 and Romans 8, both of which you seem to avoid. I quote two verses of Romans 8:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The key to these verses is the meaning of the word "foreknew." At this point, we need to follow the biblical meaning, not the cultural or rational meaning. What I mean is we need to find out what the word "know" means when it is used between persons. If you do such a word-study, you will find out that it means "an intimate love," not just knowing about someone by acquaintance. In other words, God loved us before creation, chose (predestined us), called us, justified us, and glorified us. Every believer has gone through those five stages and continue growing in them.

You missed another mention of the word, "foreknew", in the New Testament.

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture
says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

I do believe that the word, "foreknew", means to have formerly known.

God most certainly knew Israel before He knew the Gentile nations.

Paul strongly distinguishes between the Jews and the Gentiles all the way through
the book of Romans.

As for Ephesians, it would obviously hold true that God predestined that the Gentiles
would receive the Gospel. Then when the Gentiles believed they would be grafted
into Jesus also. The Gentiles were chosen after the Jews were grafted out.

The Jews were once known, once foreknown, but have been rejected.

 

[j55]

There's been a long-standing debate over the question of Christ's elect and the idea of Apostle Paul's predestination idea, and what Lord Jesus said about some being chosen, while others are called.

In the following example, Jesus shows about His "very elect" (Greek kai elektos).

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Lord Jesus in the above is warning about the coming of a fake-Christ. And He shows that IF... it were possible, that false-Christ working those "great signs and wonders" would be so deceptive... that it would deceive even His very elect. He is actually pointing to the idea that it is impossible for His "very elect" to be deceived in that.

Many brethren when reading that think that "very elect" idea is about all... believers on Jesus Christ. It is not, for Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16). And that idea of being a chosen one applies to apostleship, like His leaders He appointed over us in Christ.

How is this difference between those called to believe vs. a chosen very elect shown in God's Word?

Jonah of The Old Testament is a prime example. God told Jonah to go preach to the city of Nineveh, but Jonah tried to get out of that duty. Jonah fled on a ship, and God brought up a storm at sea with those aboard fearing for their life. So Jonah simply jumped overboard trying to end his life to get out of his duty, and save those aboard. God caused a great fish to swallow Jonah, and that fish then spit Jonah upon the shore at... right at the city of Nineveh. Jonah then fulfilled his duty God gave him, and God saved the people of Nineveh. Jonah sat on a hill overlooking the city, under a tree, and fell asleep. God caused the leaves of that tree to grow out and give Jonah shade. Then in the morning when the sun came out, God withered that tree back to let the sun bead down on Jonah, because Jonah was angry. (And this shows our Heavenly Father does at times have a sense of humor.)

My point, is that Jonah was obviously a 'chosen one', very elect, and those in that position are not going to get out of their duty God has given them. The reason is, He already owns them.

Apostle Paul is another prime example as a 'chosen' one. Paul (then called Saul before being converted to Christ), was a Pharisee working for them to hunt down Christians and bring them bound to Jerusalem for trial by the Jews. Saul was even on the road to Damascus for that very purpose when Jesus spoke to him and caused Saul to be blind (Acts 9). Jesus directly intervened with Saul, removing all of Saul's doubt about Christ's existence. And Jesus said about Saul that he was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, and to kings, and to the children of Israel.

Can we all... claim the above examples in our own lives when we first believed on Jesus Christ? I don't think so. Most of us are 'called' only, and not 'chosen' like Jonah or Apostle Paul. And per what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:24 about His "very elect", that shows those 'chosen' cannot be deceived. That's what that "if it were possible" phrase in that verse means. It is not possible that His "very elect" (chosen) can be deceived, particularly by that coming false-Messiah which Jesus was warning about there for the end of this world. So this idea of a 'chosen' "very elect" also applies still today for some brethren in Christ, so it is not only for the time of Christ's Apostles.

The mistake many brethren have made is with that we are all 'chosen', when most of us are 'called' only. That thinking is where many got the belief that all who have believed cannot be deceived. That's not true for those 'called', for most of us must be tested in the Faith, and not become apostates. This Truth is given especially by The New Testament warnings to the Church to remain faithful waiting on our Lord Jesus to come, and to not fall away. Those warnings would never have been given (especially by Apostle Paul), if it were not possible for all believers to be deceived.

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV

See also 1 Timothy 1:19-20; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 6:5; 2 Peter 2:18-22. Those Scriptures apply only to those who once believed on Jesus, but then fall away. It does not apply to those who are 'chosen' ones, who can never fall away from Christ.

Jesus covered this difference between those who are chosen vs. those who are called only, in His prayer of John 17 just before being delivered up to be crucified. I'll cover that next, so the post may be pretty long...

(Continued...)

Excellent job. Im proud of you. It took courage to Post a possible controversial subject.
You told the truth.
Peace.

 

[DavyP]

You fail to see what is needed....
Turn to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

Now, look. There will be destruction for a believer. But? (read carefully)...
He will not lose his salvation.
But rather, his works will be burned up by fire, thus rendering his chances for rewards will be DESTROYED! = Destruction!

​

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, ​

which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, ​

silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown ​

for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. ​

​

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. ​

​

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—​

even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-15​

You can be a total loser in trying to live for Christ.
You can do all kinds of works in hoping to show the Lord how much you are willing to suffer...

But, if what you do is not according to sound doctrine? (according to gold, silver, and precious stones)
Your "wonderful" works will be utterly burned up...
Thus, seeing your desire to please the Lord destroyed... DESTRUCTION!

But, as far as your soul? Even being a total loser in assuming wrongly to do God's will?
It says?
You will remain "saved."

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—​

even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

Stick with what the Word says in other places, too, please.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ​

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, ​

but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son ​

and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:38-40​

God is not a man that He should become petty and vindictive when some believer refuses to do His will.
Evil that will not change must be utterly destroyed.

grace and peace ............

I agree we can go through many trials and tribulations, and will still be saved by Lord Jesus, but because of what? Because of 'our'... keeping The Faith.

Hebrews 6 gives an example of what happens to one who does not... keep The Faith; one who experienced the works and gifts of the world to come, but then turns away from The Faith. That Scripture does not... show that one can be saved. As a matter of fact, that is actually what the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit is about, i.e., after having experienced the gifts and evidence of Christ's Kingdom of The Spirit, then falling away from The Faith.

Here is another example:

Rev 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
KJV

Those who do not keep The Faith of Jesus Christ when the coming pseudo-Christ shows up working great signs and wonders to fool the majority of the world, will have no excuse when Jesus does return. I won't say Jesus will not eventually forgive them, because that's His decision, not ours.

 

[DavyP]

You missed another mention of the word, "foreknew", in the New Testament.

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture
says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

I do believe that the word, "foreknew", means to have formerly known.

God most certainly knew Israel before He knew the Gentile nations.

Paul strongly distinguishes between the Jews and the Gentiles all the way through
the book of Romans.

As for Ephesians, it would obviously hold true that God predestined that the Gentiles
would receive the Gospel. Then when the Gentiles believed they would be grafted
into Jesus also. The Gentiles were chosen after the Jews were grafted out.

The Jews were once known, once foreknown, but have been rejected.

But Apostle Paul in Romans 11 shows that God Himself spiritually blinded the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews away from The Gospel, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul was teaching that the day will come (at Jesus' future return), when God will remove... their blindness away from The Gospel.

So I would not say God has rejected all the unbelieving Jews just yet. Paul told us to not be conceited on this point because we have accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the majority of the Jews haven't yet. He suggested that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, many more of the Jews will accept Jesus too. Those will wish for the mountains and hills to fall upon them, that idea being about their shame when Jesus does return and they realize they had rejected Him.

 

[cv5]

In the following example, Jesus shows about His "very elect" (Greek kai elektos).

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

The setting is the post-rapture tribulation in the land of Israel. The intended audience are Israelites DURING THE TRIBULATION.
Christ is warning them that false ISRAELITE prophets are attempting to HERD them to their DOOM.
These false prophets are AGENTS OF THE ANTICHRIST...!

Something like WW2 and tricking Israelites into a room that was actually a gas chamber. Certain death.

 

[Jimbone]

so it's totally possible for us to fall away and up to us to try very hard not to so we can become elect,

and it's impossible for the elect to fall away, because it's not up to them at all but God has chosen them?

So salvation is put completely on our shoulders huh? That doesn't sound like a great gift, or very good news to be honest. If it's up to me then I guess I'm going to burn. That sucks.

 

[DavyP]

The setting is the post-rapture tribulation in the land of Israel. The intended audience are Israelites DURING THE TRIBULATION.
Christ is warning them that false ISRAELITE prophets are attempting to HERD them to their DOOM.
These false prophets are AGENTS OF THE ANTICHRIST...!

Something like WW2 and tricking Israelites into a room that was actually a gas chamber. Certain death.

There is no such thing in God's Word about some "post-rapture tribulation", as Christ's future coming to gather His Faithful Church only happens AFTER... the future tribulation, like He said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

 

[cv5]

There is no such thing in God's Word about some "post-rapture tribulation", as Christ's future coming to gather His Faithful Church only happens AFTER... the future tribulation, like He said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

That is what the ignorant always say. And they are always wrong.