Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
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Please read the following passage.
Luke 21:20-21
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave,
and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of punishment,
so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled.
Luke stated all things were fulfilled.
Your declaring that not all things were fulfilled?
That is a direct contradiction of what Luke wrote.
The warning given by Jesus was for the folk living in Judea, not for the Gentiles.
All things refers to the prophecy and warnings given to Israel only, they were all fulfilled.
Israel was grafted out and the Gentiles were grafted in.
We are now in the era of the Gentiles and no longer in the age of the Jews.
A tremendous time of change for the Jews.
Jerusalem and the temple were a scene of desolation, in fact, the desolation of
Israel was complete.
The warning of the desolation of Judea did occur within that generation.
Luke 21:20-21
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city must leave,
and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of punishment,
so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled.
Luke stated all things were fulfilled.
Your declaring that not all things were fulfilled?
That is a direct contradiction of what Luke wrote.
The warning given by Jesus was for the folk living in Judea, not for the Gentiles.
All things refers to the prophecy and warnings given to Israel only, they were all fulfilled.
Israel was grafted out and the Gentiles were grafted in.
We are now in the era of the Gentiles and no longer in the age of the Jews.
A tremendous time of change for the Jews.
Jerusalem and the temple were a scene of desolation, in fact, the desolation of
Israel was complete.
The warning of the desolation of Judea did occur within that generation.
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There will be a temple in the Tribulation period constructed.
Its waiting in the wings as I type in a prefabricated state.
'Temple in Waiting' Prepared in Jerusalem
grace and peace .......
Its waiting in the wings as I type in a prefabricated state.
'Temple in Waiting' Prepared in Jerusalem
grace and peace .......
A series of very good questions.
I do not hold to any of the ten available interpretations of the end times.
I have been told a hundred times you say, that is an exaggeration Genez.
I do not regard any interpretation as doctrine.
The return of Jesus to judge the living and the dead is doctrine.
All Christians have some level of false doctrine and that will include me.
It is not a personal attack on you Genez.
The specific interpretation you follow will have flaws.
It will be the verses you ignore that will cause the problem.
I do not hold to any of the ten available interpretations of the end times.
I have been told a hundred times you say, that is an exaggeration Genez.
I do not regard any interpretation as doctrine.
The return of Jesus to judge the living and the dead is doctrine.
All Christians have some level of false doctrine and that will include me.
It is not a personal attack on you Genez.
The specific interpretation you follow will have flaws.
It will be the verses you ignore that will cause the problem.
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That's the beauty of discussion, which I like.
This is somewhat lengthy, so I hope you don't mind reading, although I will try to keep it brief:
Isaiah 54:5
5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
It might be different had there not been more written by the prophets of the Lord already having been the husband of Israel:
Jeremiah 3:11, 14
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. ...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Hosea 2:14-19
14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, [that] thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
So, we can see that Gentiles are not at all the one to whom the Lord betrothed Himself. Today, however, the popular teaching that the Lord's bride is now the BODY of Christ...that simply makes no sense. The reference that's been made to 2 Corinthians 2:11, speaking to one of Churches, using the imagery of a marital relationship, that context doesn't give any reason to believe that the Lord sent Paul out to be a match-maker for Him among the Gentiles. This idea that the Lord will become the serial polygamy wife of the Lord, I cannot accept that. Replacement theology has Israel pushed completely out of the picture, even though the tribulation period is the Lord's means for dealing with disobedient and harlotry immersed Israel and Judah.
It is already revealed that the body of Christ will dwell in Heavenly places, not the New Jerusalem, for it is clear that the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem are the Lord's bride who will be joined back to Him after this:
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jeremiah 3:11-14
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
So, even after having divorced Israel, the Lord still considered Himself married to her. So, are we now to believe that the Lord will become a polygamist in Revelation 21? Is that the Lord's ways, as believed by most Evangelicals? Famous ministries are behind this idea, and yet they fail to grapple with the massive dichotomies they create in this doctrine of theirs, never considering that the marriage will be a marital reuniting to Israel after she has been purified by the horrendous fires of tribulation (Zechariah 12).
Does this help?
MM
This is somewhat lengthy, so I hope you don't mind reading, although I will try to keep it brief:
Isaiah 54:5
5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
It might be different had there not been more written by the prophets of the Lord already having been the husband of Israel:
Jeremiah 3:11, 14
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. ...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jeremiah 31:31-32
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Hosea 2:14-19
14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, [that] thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
So, we can see that Gentiles are not at all the one to whom the Lord betrothed Himself. Today, however, the popular teaching that the Lord's bride is now the BODY of Christ...that simply makes no sense. The reference that's been made to 2 Corinthians 2:11, speaking to one of Churches, using the imagery of a marital relationship, that context doesn't give any reason to believe that the Lord sent Paul out to be a match-maker for Him among the Gentiles. This idea that the Lord will become the serial polygamy wife of the Lord, I cannot accept that. Replacement theology has Israel pushed completely out of the picture, even though the tribulation period is the Lord's means for dealing with disobedient and harlotry immersed Israel and Judah.
It is already revealed that the body of Christ will dwell in Heavenly places, not the New Jerusalem, for it is clear that the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem are the Lord's bride who will be joined back to Him after this:
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jeremiah 3:11-14
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
So, even after having divorced Israel, the Lord still considered Himself married to her. So, are we now to believe that the Lord will become a polygamist in Revelation 21? Is that the Lord's ways, as believed by most Evangelicals? Famous ministries are behind this idea, and yet they fail to grapple with the massive dichotomies they create in this doctrine of theirs, never considering that the marriage will be a marital reuniting to Israel after she has been purified by the horrendous fires of tribulation (Zechariah 12).
Does this help?
MM
I really don't know what to tell you, other than subjectively creating a disconnect that you're trying to lay at the feet of Luke, who wrote what Christ had stated, that's nothing but a failure to rightly divide the word of truth. I understand your confusion, but I can't lay this all out exhaustively when you are not willing to do your own deeper study into this as to why all those things were NOT fulfilled within that generation. When you refuse to move from that doctrinal spot, nothing anyone could ever say would ever convince you.
So, what can anyone say other than what has been shown?
MM
So, what can anyone say other than what has been shown?
MM
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Jesus comes and every eye will see Him.
No secret comming.
Mat 24:24-27
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Lots of false christs...
But when Jesus comes it shall be bright.
1Th 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Not a quiet time when Meet in the clouds.
A few verses latter .....1Th 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
This is not saying the event will be a secret. But that people will be unprepared
It will catch people off guard. People will be sleeping and not ready.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
No secret.
1Co 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Not a quiet time, the trumpet shall sound.
You can twist the bible and make it say what you want but the truth is clear
When Jesus comes to gather the saved it is not a secret.
Jesus comes and every eye will see Him.
No secret comming.
Mat 24:24-27
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Lots of false christs...
But when Jesus comes it shall be bright.
1Th 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Not a quiet time when Meet in the clouds.
A few verses latter .....1Th 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
This is not saying the event will be a secret. But that people will be unprepared
It will catch people off guard. People will be sleeping and not ready.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
No secret.
1Co 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Not a quiet time, the trumpet shall sound.
You can twist the bible and make it say what you want but the truth is clear
When Jesus comes to gather the saved it is not a secret.
Generally speaking, let's put the question of the rapture to the acid test:
Acts 1:3, 6-7, 9-11
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ...
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. ...
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
So, only those who were believers, especially the disciples, could see Jesus as He walked in their midst, talking with them, eating with them, and seeing the infallible signs He performed. He was asked about the Kingdom being restored to Israel, to which He did not deny was going to happen, but only that they would not know the times or the seasons.
He was taken up out of their site, not out of the sight of the unbelieving masses all throughout the land, but only out from their site.
So, why anyone would think it strange that the Lord, who will return in like manner, remaining in the clouds, in the air, and calls up the dead in Him first and then the living, why that's not going to be visible to all the nations of unbelievers, I don't see the problem here. I realize preterists and such have a problem with it all, with some even casting an antagonistic light upon what we believe, and even going so far as to misrepresent what we actually believe in order to get the cheesy little guffaws from their seedy little friends and cohorts. Well, go for it. Makes no never mind to some others here. Scripture says what it says, and we also have this:
1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
So, when detractors say they too received their beliefs from Holy Spirit, and both sides are saying such, one or both are liars. Let's see now...where do liars end up...?
Holy Spirit is not the inventor of disunity and chaos. Holy Spirit reveals the same things to all who seek Him for answers. Those who get their doctrines from false teaching pastors, Sunday school teachers, books, internet articles, et al, and never seek out Holy Spirit with a humble heart willing to cast aside all that they think that they know, they are those who are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
Enjoy.
MM
Acts 1:3, 6-7, 9-11
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ...
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. ...
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
So, only those who were believers, especially the disciples, could see Jesus as He walked in their midst, talking with them, eating with them, and seeing the infallible signs He performed. He was asked about the Kingdom being restored to Israel, to which He did not deny was going to happen, but only that they would not know the times or the seasons.
He was taken up out of their site, not out of the sight of the unbelieving masses all throughout the land, but only out from their site.
So, why anyone would think it strange that the Lord, who will return in like manner, remaining in the clouds, in the air, and calls up the dead in Him first and then the living, why that's not going to be visible to all the nations of unbelievers, I don't see the problem here. I realize preterists and such have a problem with it all, with some even casting an antagonistic light upon what we believe, and even going so far as to misrepresent what we actually believe in order to get the cheesy little guffaws from their seedy little friends and cohorts. Well, go for it. Makes no never mind to some others here. Scripture says what it says, and we also have this:
1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
So, when detractors say they too received their beliefs from Holy Spirit, and both sides are saying such, one or both are liars. Let's see now...where do liars end up...?
Holy Spirit is not the inventor of disunity and chaos. Holy Spirit reveals the same things to all who seek Him for answers. Those who get their doctrines from false teaching pastors, Sunday school teachers, books, internet articles, et al, and never seek out Holy Spirit with a humble heart willing to cast aside all that they think that they know, they are those who are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
Enjoy.
MM
No, the dead in Christ that return with Him to the Earth are raised first then those alive on the Earth are transformed - ALL that are IN CHRIST.
Those that fall in the category under the 5 Wise Virgins will be raptured at the end of The Feast of Trumpets BEFORE The Day of Atonement… and those spirits and souls returning with the Lord to receive their bodies back will be raised to life and transformed in a twinkling of an eye.
The Day of Atonement will begin the Tribulation time for the Jews and any lukewarm Christians which fall under the category of the 5 Foolish Virgins… sounds like half of the believers on Earth are going and half are left behind.
If I am left behind, I’m going to the front of the line to refuse the mark of the beast and get my head chopped off because it will be the only way off this planet and into the Paradise of God… just saying.
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Sure. But notice it isn't God who wants it. It's the Jews, who think that's what God wants. But do you know who else wants it built? That's right, the antichrist wants it built too. How else is he going to desecrate it and try to take God's place?
It'll be interesting how they will get that done considering the Dome of the Rock sitting where the Jewish temple used to be - and God will be watching all this and watching them ignore everything He's said and done in the New Testament. I'm thinking the antichrist will just have it removed somehow. This is why I don't think he will be Muslim like some people believe. Back in Roman times, the Roman "religion" was pagan, not Islam, but notice that Rome tolerated all the religions of their conquered peoples for a time (until it got out of hand like with the Jews). The antichrist will tolerate all the religions too until he desecrates the third temple and demand to be worshipped in God's place.
The fact that the third temple hasn't been built yet gives us time to build our faith up so that we will be able to endure to the end if it should happen in our lifetime. Unlike in previous times, with the current technology, the third temple can be quickly built.
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