Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[TabinRivCA]

I'm not sure why he thought that the rapture was at all associated with the Second Coming. They are not at all similar. Those who really do know the Bible can differentiate that from what is written about the character of the two entrances of the Lord into this realm. The angels, at Christ's departure said that He would return in like manner for us. The character of the Second coming is vastly different in character, considering that He will then be returning in wrath, destroying His enemies. That is not at all what will happen at His coming for His body, which is showering us with blessing as He was doing at His departure.

So, Graham, like so many other super stars, got it wrong by comparing the rapture, when His Feet never touch the ground, with His Second Coming when His Feet do touch down upon the earth and the mountain splits in half, destroying the wicked city of spiritual Babylon in the process, otherwise known as ancient Jerusalem. The cataclysm of that mountain splitting by way of the fault they have already found running east and west through Zion, yeah. It's going to be epic in its destruction of that wicked, spiritual Sodom of a city.

MM

Scripture for ancient Jerusalem being spiritual Babylon, please.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Again, the Church is not the bride of Christ.

That's putting it simply.

MM

Who is the Bride of Christ, then?

 

[Musicmaster]

Scripture for ancient Jerusalem being spiritual Babylon, please.

So, you're going to stick with Peter writing his epistle from within Babylonian ruins inhabited by nothing but pagan nomads. Where does scripture back up any idea Peter was in Babylon...ever? If you think you have something better than mere antagonism, them we're all ears...

Or, how about Rome as being Babylon, or New York...please...

See how lacking that is?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Who is the Bride of Christ, then?

Read post #78

MM

 

[Genez]

Paul was speaking to the body of Christ, not Israel. The body of Christ will dwell in "heavenly places," not the New Earth nor the New Jerusalem.

MM

Yes... we will be in heaven and commute to earth to reign with Him. In a flash it would be done.

You ever leave your house to go to work?

 

[sawdust]

The Evangelical teaching that the Church is the bride of Christ, it's false, and here's why:

Revelation 21:9-10, 12, 14, 24-26
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: ...
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ...
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

As we can see, it's the names of all the tribes of Israel, and the apostles that were written upon it, not Europe, America, Africa, or any other names of nations. Instead, we see that the nations bring tribute into the city, which would imply that they live outside the city for them to bring into the city the glory and honor from outside the city that will rest upon the new earth.

The body of Christ will not live there, and here's why:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul was speaking to the body of Christ, not Israel. The body of Christ will dwell in "heavenly places," not the New Earth nor the New Jerusalem.

MM

Ah I see. Ok I understand better now why you say what you say. I will need to look into it further although, I'm not sure it is quite as simple as you say.

 

[Musicmaster]

Yes... we will be in heaven and commute to earth to reign with Him. In a flash it would be done.

You ever leave your house to go to work?

At least Sawdust is willing to look into it more than just sit back on the laurels and ridicule and antagonize.

How pathetic indeed.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Ah I see. Ok I understand better now why you say what you say. I will need to look into it further although, I'm not sure it is quite as simple as you say.

There are more complex levels to which we may go, but I wanted to make it easy enough for the sake of other readers who prefer direct and concise reasoning and scripture.

MM

 

[TabinRivCA]

Read post #78

MM

'2 Corinthians 11:2: Paul expresses his commitment to the Corinthian church by saying, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.”

So, you're going to stick with Peter writing his epistle from within Babylonian ruins inhabited by nothing but pagan nomads. Where does scripture back up any idea Peter was in Babylon...ever? If you think you have something better than mere antagonism, them we're all ears...

Or, how about Rome as being Babylon, or New York...please...

See how lacking that is?

MM

I stick with Scripture not guesswork. You don't have Scripture for your assumption?

 

[TMS]

And for those that say one remains dead and does not see after life. I say what about the transfiguration, the disciples seeing Moses and Elijah and Jesus in white,

God can raise us when ever He chooses
God has the power of life

Moses died and God choose to raise him
Technically Jesus had not paid the price but we will not go into the legal side.

Moses represents the dead that are raised and Elijah represents the living that meet the Lord in the air. First fruits of the resurrection.

The Bible does not contradict itself.
Ecc 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 

[Inquisitor]

Galatians 3:28​

​

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, ​

for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

Why would God recruit 144,000 Jews for evangelizing, during the time of the Tribulation?
If there is no longer Jew, nor Gentile, in Christ Jesus?

That's a problem some are not dealing with..

One must study to know the Word of God better than simply how one feels about a matter.

Where does it say that the 144,000 were used for evangelism?

 

[Inquisitor]

The Evangelical teaching that the Church is the bride of Christ, it's false, and here's why:

Revelation 21:9-10, 12, 14, 24-26
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: ...
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ...
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

As we can see, it's the names of all the tribes of Israel, and the apostles that were written upon it, not Europe, America, Africa, or any other names of nations. Instead, we see that the nations bring tribute into the city, which would imply that they live outside the city for them to bring into the city the glory and honor from outside the city that will rest upon the new earth.

The body of Christ will not live there, and here's why:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul was speaking to the body of Christ, not Israel. The body of Christ will dwell in "heavenly places," not the New Earth nor the New Jerusalem.

MM

It's not false the church is the bride of Christ.

Romans 7:3-4
So then, if while her husband is alive she gives herself to another man, she will be called an adulteress;
but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress if she gives herself to
another man. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were put to death in regard to the Law through
the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order
that we might bear fruit for God.

The KJV has "married to another" given the context seems correct.

 

[homwardbound]

Which Jewish tribe are you from?

The 144,000 has nothing to do with the Church or adoption. The Church has never been referenced as "the 12 tribes of Israel". The 144,000 come from the 12 tribes, they are Jews. It was my first clue, when reading Revelation, that the end times were not about the Church.

Okay, to each their own. I simply stand in trust to God and I do not strain out gnats, I have in past and swallowed a camel, no thanks and I watch out for being so literal, I miss truth in the mix, that my original flesh nature does not fathom, that I reckon dead. I see that is how the pharisees missed out on believing Jesus was/is the Messiah, for them to get saved in. as well as everyone else to be thankful in and rest in. I never said I would be one or am one, (only adopted by God, thankfully.) of the 144,000, I said it would be an honor to be a part of that day.
Thanks, however God works it all out, is God, whom I stand in trust to God, the Father of the risen Son Jesus my Lord unto his Lord the two as Won (One) in Spirit and Truth forever

 

[homwardbound]

God can raise us when ever He chooses
God has the power of life

Moses died and God choose to raise him
Technically Jesus had not paid the price but we will not go into the legal side.

Moses represents the dead that are raised and Elijah represents the living that meet the Lord in the air. First fruits of the resurrection.

The Bible does not contradict itself.
Ecc 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

as however God leads, I am at rest in this truth of God for us all to be new and alive in God's Spirit and Truth of Son Jesus once for us all to live new in love and mercy too, thank you

I am clay, my potter makes me as I see to be willing for his lead, not mine or anyone else either as we each grow up unto maturity in this amazing grace given us all to choose to believe God or not 100% thank you

 

[Genez]

how this happens, I do not know, I do know this in Matthew 27

Matthew 27:52

Authorized (King James) Version

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And these risen went into the town there and preached
yet, this be the only verse mentioned by Matthew, the others do not have anything on that.
Yet I believe it did happen
I believe the Soul goes back to God as the body goes into the grave, separated, until the day for now. yet these Souls reentered those bodies on the resurrection of son then
And for those that say one remains dead and does not see after life. I say what about the transfiguration, the disciples seeing Moses and Elijah and Jesus in white,, Peter wanting to build shrines. Now they are not dead are they? The Spirit lives on and so ask God to reveal to you to keep you safe in God through Son as risen for you too, thank you

Those bodies were not resurrected.
For if they had been? Their bodies would have never died again.

Just like with Lazarus coming out of the tomb...
They were resuscitated. Lazarus died again.

Brought back to life, only to die again.

Only the Church at present can be resurrected, to receive a body that can never die.

Before shown that by a good teacher, I was confused about that matter as well.

 

[Genez]

Where does it say that the 144,000 were used for evangelism?

You're changing the subject.

I made a point. You avoided it.

Since in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile? (Galatians 3:28-29)

Why suddenly would God be calling Jews if the 144,000 were walking the earth, while it's during the church age?

That was my point to show that the Church will not be on earth during the Tribulation.
Can you at least answer that one?

Then we can get to the other after you show me your answer.

 

[Genez]

From the perspective of the pre-tribulation belief, one's presence here after the beginning of the tribulation means that one is not saved beforehand, apart from being one of the 144,000. The antagonists out there who have nothing better to do than to spew their acid of doubts based upon misinterpretations and over-allegoricalizing tendencies, they too are free to remain if they so choose. Not me.

As an Israeli, and I know that I am not among that 144,000 given that I am sealed by Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption without my having to persevere. Being born again means that one is not ever going to become UNborn again. There are some who believe that's possible, which is akin to believing in Martians and Harry Potter as being real. If you're not sealed by Holy Spirit and therefore born again, then that's on you. To believe that the seal of Holy Spirit upon all true believers right now is being too weak to hold them without any weakness on the part of the Lord, that is a tragic viewpoint and utterly outside the bounds of scripture.

Also keep in mind that the martyrs from the tribulation period do not have crowns of reward upon their heads, but have only white robes and palm branches in hand, and thus have an entirely different destiny assigned to them...not that being in eternity in any capacity is going to be bad, but rewards will have far greater impact in eternity than to go there with no rewards because of one not having been in Christ before the rapture, and thus only believing after the Lord begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth and mankind. Why wait until then, and thus have no reward? NOW is the time to store up treasure in Heaven, because in the tribulation, no reward will be offered so far as can be seen within scripture.

MM

The 144,000 all have to be virgin males.

Revelation 14:4

These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. ​

These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were ​

redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

There are going to be a lot of shocked Jehovah Witnesses!

And, being firstfruits?
Means they were the first to become regenerated in their given generation. Where' was they church then?

 

[Musicmaster]

'2 Corinthians 11:2: Paul expresses his commitment to the Corinthian church by saying, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.”

I stick with Scripture not guesswork. You don't have Scripture for your assumption?

So, faced with the dichotomy in your theological viewpoint on this topic from the basis of demonstrated scripture, you're going to stick with your personal interpretation of Paul's meaning, all at the exclusion of the very names upon that city, and other verses I have presented?

Well, nothing new about that...

Go for it if it makes you feel better. It seems more a matter of pride from what I'm seeing in your rationale, but some might say that I'm biased because I'm Israeli, but it is what it is.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

It's not false the church is the bride of Christ.

Romans 7:3-4
So then, if while her husband is alive she gives herself to another man, she will be called an adulteress;
but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress if she gives herself to
another man. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were put to death in regard to the Law through
the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order
that we might bear fruit for God.

The KJV has "married to another" given the context seems correct.

I would recommend your being more...inquisitive, because I presented from scripture the VERY strong case for the fact that replacement theology is absolutely wrong, especially given that the body of Christ is NOT going to dwell in the New Jerusalem, but rather in Heavenly places. Your lack for wanting to believe scripture is your problem, not mine.

Best of luck to you, because you're going to need it...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The 144,000 all have to be virgin males.

Revelation 14:4​

​

These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. ​

These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were ​

redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

There are going to be a lot of shocked Jehovah Witnesses!

I absolutely agree.

MM