Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Pilgrimshope]

Unfortunately James disagrees with you, in that Abraham's faith was only legitimized after his work of obedience to sacrifice his one and only son:

James 2:21-22
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This is only a problem for those out there who refuse to rightly divide the word of truth. Ahh, but the majority of Evangelical, Westernized Christianity claim they see no difference in what James said and what Paul said...both of which are true, but that only were written TO those to whom they were written. James was not writing to the body of Christ at that time, as is proven by James 1:1. The slight of hand some people like to play with the epistle of James, always while excluding the timeframe for when it was written in relation to Paul and the revelation of the mystery that Christ revealed only to him AFTER James had written that epistle...therein is an example for the importance for that division that the willfully blind remain indifferent.

What James wrote was absolutely true, but only to those to whom he had written at the time it was written.

MM

“What James wrote was absolutely true, but only to those to whom he had written at the time it was written.”

Lol just James ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

John preached this:

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus preached this:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Given that the Gospel preached at that time, to those people, one could indeed lose his salvation if he did not have and retain his faith, but that is not the case today. Not one place do the Gospels declare the "sealing" of Holy Spirit by grace through faith unto salvation. Instead, the Kingdom program required perseverance unto the end, just as Jesus declared.

Replacement theology has its followers believing that the body of Christ must also persevere, and some even claim that perseverance is divinely bestowed, even though they cannot show it from scripture without injecting into the text their Armenian beliefs. The Gospel of Grace is NOT what Jesus preached, nor was that the preaching of the eleven until after the Kingdom program was placed on hold.

So, there is a place and time for one to lose his salvation, but it's not under the Gospel of Grace. Those who pass into the tribulation on this earth, THEY will be those who will have to persevere unto the end.

MM

“Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus preached this:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The knowledge of the lord is found in the gospel you seem Intent in removing

 

[Rufus]

John preached this:

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus preached this:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Given that the Gospel preached at that time, to those people, one could indeed lose his salvation if he did not have and retain his faith, but that is not the case today. Not one place do the Gospels declare the "sealing" of Holy Spirit by grace through faith unto salvation. Instead, the Kingdom program required perseverance unto the end, just as Jesus declared.

Replacement theology has its followers believing that the body of Christ must also persevere, and some even claim that perseverance is divinely bestowed, even though they cannot show it from scripture without injecting into the text their Armenian beliefs. The Gospel of Grace is NOT what Jesus preached, nor was that the preaching of the eleven until after the Kingdom program was placed on hold.

So, there is a place and time for one to lose his salvation, but it's not under the Gospel of Grace. Those who pass into the tribulation on this earth, THEY will be those who will have to persevere unto the end.

MM

In other words, you worship a double-minded, forked-tongue god who's a huge advocate of disharmony, inconsistency and disunity because you think that he has two distinct peoples -- one people based on genealogical descent and another based on spiritual descent. It's no wonder that between DT and CT (dispensational and covenant theology, respectively), the church here in the West, especially, is so weak and impoverished.

 

[Rufus]

“Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus preached this:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The knowledge of the lord is found in the gospel you seem Intent in removing

I wonder if Dispens also believe that God has two distinct and separate kingdoms: One for Jews and one for Gentiles? Yet, everywhere in scripture we find only one kingdom talked about:

Dan 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
NIV

On the other hand, if Dispens agree with scripture and recognize that there is only one King who has one kingdom, then we're left with many saints being left out in the cold -- not being included in the Kingdom of God, since He has two different peoples with two different eternal destinies. And what megabytes of irony this would be, since the New Eternal Order would reflect the OC reality of a divided Davidic kingdom. (This is what happens when the OT is read back into the New!) I guess the New Eternal Order -- the consummated New Creation Age -- won't be that new after all.

Dispensationalism is an unmitigated mess!

 

[Rufus]

I have a question for Dispens: The fourth beast in Dan 7:19ff. is symbolic of what empire?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I wonder if Dispens also believe that God has two distinct and separate kingdoms: One for Jews and one for Gentiles? Yet, everywhere in scripture we find only one kingdom talked about:

Dan 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
NIV

On the other hand, if Dispens agree with scripture and recognize that there is only one King who has one kingdom, then we're left with many saints being left out in the cold -- not being included in the Kingdom of God, since He has two different peoples with two different eternal destinies. And what megabytes of irony this would be, since the New Eternal Order would reflect the OC reality of a divided Davidic kingdom. (This is what happens when the OT is read back into the New!) I guess the New Eternal Order -- the consummated New Creation Age -- won't be that new after all.

Dispensationalism is an unmitigated mess!

Yep there’s just one kingdom I agree the prophets have been foretelling it always

“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd….. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:15-16, 27-28‬ ‭

 

[Rufus]

Yep there’s just one kingdom I agree the prophets have been foretelling it always

“As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd….. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:15-16, 27-28‬ ‭

There's one God, who always had one plan, to redeem one people (Abraham's spiritual descendants) for himself, through the one and only True Israel (Jesus Christ), which makes Christ's Church the new eschatological Israel that now embraces God's elect throughout the entire world, so that the ONE fold of sheep will be co-heirs with Christ in his Kingdom.

 

[Rufus]

Hmm....I see that I have no takers on the question I asked in my 4945 re Dan 7:19ff. I'll answer the question so that I can ramp it up to my next one. The answer to the first is that the fourth beast was the Roman Empire. And so this brings me to the next question: Dispens, has the prophecy in v. 25b been fulfilled or not?

 

[mailmandan]

It was The Holy Spirit who said they had been partakers of Him. Not me. Can an unsaved person have the Holy Spirit?? Is that what you believe? You are saying an UNSAVED person, who is living in sin, has never repented of his sins, has never confessed Christ, who we don’t know if they even believe in Christ, who is serving SATAN, can be a PARTAKER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?? I am amazed!! It’s almost like we are not even reading the same Bible. And by the way, you have perverted the word of God by “adding”the word “work” in verse 4. They were not partakers of His “work”, they were PARTAKERS OF HIM!. That means they had the Holy Spirit in them! I would like you to show me from the scriptures, 1 unsaved person who had the Holy Spirit living in him.
further, you think that even though God says they have been enlightened by the gospel, and have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT of salvation, they were still unsaved? Just because God doesn’t say it to YOUR satisfaction, the way, YOU think He should have said it, you are not going to believe it? I am sorry for you.

There are many, many Christian’s. Who have left the faith, both in the Bible and today. But that doesn’t prove anything! That is a very WEAK argument! What matters is that God, in His word, over and over again, tells us, in words plain enough that anyone who wants to know the truth can understand, that a child of God can so live as to be lost.

See post #51 from the link below:

Hebrews 6 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

 

[mailmandan]

Sounds an awful lot like what you say when you find a passage like 2 Peter 2:22 that doesn’t fit your false doctrine—you try to explain it away by saying, well, they weren’t ever saved in the first place”. Sour grapes. Amazing how you can look into their hearts and know that!

Let’s examine 2 Peter 2:20-22. Verse 20 says these people who have TURNED AWAY from Christ had at one time ESCAPED THE POLLUTION OF THE WORLD, they had KNOWN THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Verse 21- THEY HAD KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is Divinity’s assessment of their spiritual condition at one time. Does that sound like to you that they were never really saved??

In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[LifelongLearner]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

 

[LifelongLearner]

As a very new Christian and member of CChat, my opinions might seem iffy due to limited knowledge. Personally do think it's possible to lose salvation currently, increased knowledge might change my mind and it seems logical and fair to me, that if we deny him, he will deny us.

Don't know enough yet to confidently state that would be permanent, currently think the outcome might depend on the circumstances and if the person truly repents. I have already read most of the Bible and can see the LORD is wise, loving and merciful far beyond our ken. interesting to think about such things but only He can make a perfect, fair judgement

 

[Edify]

2 Peter 3:17
New International Version
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

New Living Translation
You already know these things, dear friends. So be on guard; then you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing.

English Standard Version
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Berean Standard Bible
Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore beloved, knowing this beforehand, you beware, lest you should fall from the own steadfastness, having been led away by the error of the lawless.

King James Bible
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

New King James Version
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

New American Standard Bible
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment,

They all seem to say the same thing.... maybe it's true?
Traditional elders, however will still try to convince you it doesn't mean what it says.

 

[glf]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Here's a couple more of the many many scriptures that agrees with this statement:
Rev 3: 5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Rev 22: 19, "If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."