Works and Salvation
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[Rom 4:9-10 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
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What is the "it" you mention above? If you can't tell us that, then you tell us nothing - a requirement without
a solution. You also need to inform us as to the frequency by which the "it" must be satisfied in order to have been saved. Having stated the above, you became obliged to enumerate both answers in detail so that we may satisfy them, and/or, to know that we have satisfied them, otherwise, we will have no standard to compare/measure ourselves against.
a solution. You also need to inform us as to the frequency by which the "it" must be satisfied in order to have been saved. Having stated the above, you became obliged to enumerate both answers in detail so that we may satisfy them, and/or, to know that we have satisfied them, otherwise, we will have no standard to compare/measure ourselves against.
That's not what Titus 2:11-13 says... at all. Here's the text:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say, "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (NIV)
Nothing in the passage mentions the law, as you claim. It is the grace of God that teaches us, not the law. I don't know how you managed to butcher this so badly... perhaps you are simply blinded by your religion.
Yet God's word is clear that perfect obedience is the standard by which those under the law are judged.
Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (NIV)
Further, James 2:10 makes clear, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (NIV)
Your capacity to misquote and misrepresent Scripture astounds me. Here's what Jesus actually said in Matthew 5:16:
"In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)
Does that say anything about obedience to the law? No. Does the context? No. Does it say that the works give glory to God? No.
I suggest you humbly ask God to remove the veil that blinds you from the truth of the gospel.
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say, "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (NIV)
Nothing in the passage mentions the law, as you claim. It is the grace of God that teaches us, not the law. I don't know how you managed to butcher this so badly... perhaps you are simply blinded by your religion.
Yet God's word is clear that perfect obedience is the standard by which those under the law are judged.
Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (NIV)
Further, James 2:10 makes clear, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (NIV)
Your capacity to misquote and misrepresent Scripture astounds me. Here's what Jesus actually said in Matthew 5:16:
"In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)
Does that say anything about obedience to the law? No. Does the context? No. Does it say that the works give glory to God? No.
I suggest you humbly ask God to remove the veil that blinds you from the truth of the gospel.
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So, let me see if I have this straight: according to you, we prove that we are not under law.... by keeping law which we are not under, and by keeping law which we are not under, we thereby prove that we are saved; otherwise, if we don't keep law that we are not under we prove we are not saved. That about it or have I misunderstood something?
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According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so countless people have fulfilled it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far form him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by betting it before him so this is what it means to be under HIS grace and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
"It" referred back to God's law, which consists of the laws that God has commanded. I've said nothing about needed to to obey God's law with a certain frequency in order to become saved, but rather I said that God graciously teaching his to obey His law is the way that he is giving us His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to become saved as the result or as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works in obedience to His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.
The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we believe that the Psalms are Scripture, then we also need to believe that they express a correct view of obeying God's law, and that we should share it. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who mediate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of getting to obey God's law. So you being thankful that you don't need to satisfy God's law is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. In 1 John 2:6, it says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, not that those who are in Christ don't need to.
What does that have to do with what I've said?
While I agree that we are not under the law, Paul spoke about mutable different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was referring to us as not being under. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, Paul said that our faith upholds God's law in contrast with saying that works of the law are not of faith.
The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good, so it is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, whereas the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is a law where sin had dominion over us, and Romans 6:14 describes the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by God's law that we have knowledge of what sin is, so we are still under the Law of God, but are not under the law of sin. Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus leading us to be an obeyer of the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being an obeyer of the Law of God. The position that we are not under God's law is the position that we do not need to refrain from sin, that we do not need salvation from sin, and that we do not need Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness.
The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we believe that the Psalms are Scripture, then we also need to believe that they express a correct view of obeying God's law, and that we should share it. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who mediate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of getting to obey God's law. So you being thankful that you don't need to satisfy God's law is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. In 1 John 2:6, it says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, not that those who are in Christ don't need to.
What does that have to do with what I've said?
While I agree that we are not under the law, Paul spoke about mutable different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was referring to us as not being under. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, Paul said that our faith upholds God's law in contrast with saying that works of the law are not of faith.
The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good, so it is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, whereas the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is a law where sin had dominion over us, and Romans 6:14 describes the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by God's law that we have knowledge of what sin is, so we are still under the Law of God, but are not under the law of sin. Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin. God is sovereign, so we are all under His law.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus leading us to be an obeyer of the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being an obeyer of the Law of God. The position that we are not under God's law is the position that we do not need to refrain from sin, that we do not need salvation from sin, and that we do not need Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness.
I guess you did not get the memo: By speaking of a new covenant, He has made
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
From Acts 15:10-11 ~ Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? We believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
From Acts 15:20 plus 28
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
From Acts 15:10-11 ~ Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? We believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
From Acts 15:20 plus 28
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I guess you did not get the memo: By speaking of a new covenant, He has made
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
From Acts 15:10-11 ~ Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? We believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
From Acts 15:20 plus 28
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
From Acts 15:10-11 ~ Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? We believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
From Acts 15:20 plus 28
The definition of "obsolete" is not encompassed by "something else does everything the former thing did and more". Rather, it means, "no longer produced or used; out of date" (source: Oxford Dictionaries, emphasis added).
Horse-drawn carts and wagons are obsolete because cars and pickup trucks exist. Dung shovelers are obsolete because our streets aren't filled with horse-drawn carts and wagons. The latter sense applies to Hebrews 8:13.
Hebrews 8:3-4 says nothing about meeting the righteous requirement of the Torah. I think you meant Romans 8:3-4, although that also doesn't say what you claim. Here's the NIV:
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
There's nothing about "being free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah" but rather that those requirement is met. That's past tense, indicating completed action. Once again, your position is refuted by plain Scripture.
Horse-drawn carts and wagons are obsolete because cars and pickup trucks exist. Dung shovelers are obsolete because our streets aren't filled with horse-drawn carts and wagons. The latter sense applies to Hebrews 8:13.
Hebrews 8:3-4 says nothing about meeting the righteous requirement of the Torah. I think you meant Romans 8:3-4, although that also doesn't say what you claim. Here's the NIV:
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
There's nothing about "being free to meet the righteous requirement of the Torah" but rather that those requirement is met. That's past tense, indicating completed action. Once again, your position is refuted by plain Scripture.
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