Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Beckworth]

Okay, so you believe it's our works that saves or condemn us. I disagree. I do not believe in a works based gospel, you do. I think you're teaching a false gospel clearly, and are usurping Gods glory for yourself. Again I disagree, I believe it's ALL God that draws me to Him, Him that saves me, Him that guides me, and Him that keeps me. 100% ALL God the whole time, and He gets 100% ALL glory for it. We have a fundamental difference here and I do not believe His word at all supports a gospel where we have the burden on our shoulders and earn our salvation in the way you're teaching. Very obviously you're too convinced you're correct so at this point we should just admit the difference strait up, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. You believe in your works to save you right? If you're good enough.

Are you aware that Jesus said “faith” is a work? John 6:28-29. And Paul said “faith” is a work? 2 Thess. 1:11.and again in 1 Thess. 1:3.? Since God says “faith” is a work, and YOU say we are NOT saved by works, then you have just thrown out “faith” as necessary for salvation. God says without faith it is impossible to please Him. “You are mistaken not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.” Matt. 22:29. There are “bad” works talked about in the scriptures and there are “good” works talked about in the scriptures. The Devil has done a good job of convincing men that ALL works are bad. But that’s not true. There are WORKS OF GOD that even the disciples realized we MUST DO. Jesus never condemned anyone for doing His “works”. He never accused them of “earning their salvation “. Or condemned them for “working their way to heaven”. You have been listening to MEN—more importantly to Satan. It makes sense that Satan does not want you to do anything; he does not want you to do the works of God So he has invented this big smear campaign against ALL works! He has made “works.” A dirty word. It’s a big lie! If “faith” is a work of God, then so is “repentance;” and so is “confession”; and so is “baptism.” They are works of God because 1) He says so, and 2) because they originate with HIM not men; isn’t this what he asked the Jews “John’s baptism; is it from heaven or from men?” Obviously it was from heaven. It originated with God. How much more the baptism of Jesus Christ? And 3) these things are COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. That makes them WORKS OF GOD and NOT works of men. So, YES, we ARE saved by works. The scriptures support this.

 

[Magenta]

They were perfect.

Why do people say that Adam and Eve were perfect? They were of the natural world. We are perfected in Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Context, friend.

Matt. 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 18:14 refers to little children born innocent who eventually are tempted to go astray from their youth, like a straying sheep.

Being Evil From Youth
Genesis 8:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Youth
Verse 14 refers to the fact that God does not want children to go astray in their youth, and vv. 6-9 warn the one who tempts them to do so is doing what Satan did to Adam and deserves a severe punishment. Nevertheless, the Son came to seek and save those who in their youth have been led astray from innocence. It is not God's will that any child perish, even when they end up going astray in their youth.

From this passage we could infer that every innocent child has been given to Christ as His sheep, and when they eventually go astray, it is not His will that they perish, but that they be sought and saved.

All God's elect are his children-- even the "little" children; for Jesus said earlier:

Matt 11:20-26
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children . 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
NIV

 

[Rufus]

Jesus says that there will be many who never had a relationship with Him that produced agape love working in Jesus' name through them toward others, but who assumed that power working in Jesus' name through them proved them chosen by God. He does not mention in this passage whether or not there are others whom He did once have a relationship with, who chose to depart from Him and to whom He will say, "Keep on departing from me. Because you kept on denying Me, I will deny you."

We cannot assume that when Jesus describes one particular class of people who falsely professed to be disciples, that these are the only class of people who will be found to have been falsely professing to be disciples. It seems to me that you are drawing conclusions from the text that the text does not even address.

Huh? What are you trying to say. So what...that there are 150 classes of false disciples: Are any of them going to be saved? What is your point?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It seems like one is trying to manipulate the grace of GOD.

who is tryign to manipulate?

You are living your life as you please and not living in faith,

You do not know how I live my life. So you judge what you do not know

so how can you say you God, to whom you are not faithful?

How can I say I do not trust God to save me, To keep his promise? Is this you? It certainly never was me

It seems you are or never were surrounding your life, But God is not Mocked. One cannot use God as a fire escape and think they can live life in the flesh. That is deception.

Your right, Thats why God chastens those ho are his.. It’s also what brought me back. God left the fle-okc and came, And I knew his voice and I followed.

God does not leave his sheep. Even though his sheep are not so smart. He did not save us because of how smart we are. he saved us because he loved us.

Do you trust God?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Why do people say that Adam and Eve were perfect? They were of the natural world. We are perfected in Christ.

Because they had never sinned. hence is the terms of moral judgment, they were perfect.

they were also made I’m Gods image.. they had no flaw.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

They have aeonous (Greek aiOnios) life. Aeonous means eon or age long. It does not inherently mean never ending. There is an age (aiOn) to come, the millennial reign. The life Jesus provides is the life that carries over into the age (aiOn) to come. It is the kind of life the resurrected saints will enjoy in the millennial reign.

You would maybe have a point’’

But he said they will never die

if you will never perish or die. Then you will live forever.

so your point is destroyed.

 

[Rufus]

I don't agree that the Greek text of John 6:28-29 says that faith is a work of God. Context says that Jesus had just commanded the people who had travailed to follow him around the lake and come to Him for physical food, that they should travail for the food that endures to aeonous life. Jesus seems to me to be saying that "this is the work of God (i.e. the work God requires)", namely that we travail for the food that endures to aeonous life, the word of God that Jesus was bringing down from heaven. He says that "this is the work of God so that (Greek hina) you may believe in the one whom God sent. So the context seems to me to be saying that travailing to get into a position to hear the word of God is the work of God, and one travails to get into a position to hear God's word so that (hina) one might believe in Jesus through hearing that word, since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The Greek for "the work of faith" can mean several things: the work faith achieves; the work done out of/by faith; the faithful work. None of these equate faith with the work.

No. Neither Jesus nor Paul said that faith is a work.

But faith is a work of God, for it is a gift that he gives to his elect. God even purifies the human heart by his faith (Act 15:9).

 

[Magenta]

Because they had never sinned. hence is the terms of moral judgment, they were perfect.

they were also made I’m Gods image.. they had no flaw.

Are we not all made in God's image? Being made in God's image cannot be taken to mean perfect for many reasons, since, again, we are perfected in Christ, and they were of the natural world. This very salient fact seems to be absent from many people's theology.

 

[CS1]

who is tryign to manipulate?


You do not know how I live my life. So you judge what you do not know


How can I say I do not trust God to save me, To keep his promise? Is this you? It certainly never was me


Your right, Thats why God chastens those ho are his.. It’s also what brought me back. God left the fle-okc and came, And I knew his voice and I followed.

God does not leave his sheep. Even though his sheep are not so smart. He did not save us because of how smart we are. he saved us because he loved us.

Do you trust God?

Forgive me; I misunderstood you Post. You are right I am wrong

 

[Rufus]

Are we not all made in God's image? Being made in God's image cannot be taken to mean perfect for many reasons, since, again, we are perfected in Christ, and they were of the natural world. This very salient fact seems to be absent from many people's theology.

But at the same time, our first parents were considered to be "very good". And that is a very significant truth especially in light of what Jesus taught in Mk 10:18, which is no man is good; only God alone is good. (How far man has fallen!) Now...was "very good" in the pre-Fall dispensation equivalent to perfection? Solomon tells us that man was created upright (Eccl 7:29), which the Heb term "yashar" (Strong's 3477) means "straight'. (most) upright, just, etc. In one sense I can see where man was created perfect (without sin and sin nature), but in another sense maybe not since God tested our first parents. Maybe perfection would have come if A&E had proved their loyalty and fidelity to the Creator by trusting Him.

 

[posthuman]

Why do you assume that Judas was originally a devil when He first was called by Jesus? Is there any scripture that says he was a devil when he was called?

hmmm...
is God expressing His omniscience here or His ignorance?

John 6:68-70​

But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"​

 

[Magenta]

hmmm...
is God expressing His omniscience here or His ignorance?

John 6:68-70​

But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"​

"However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the
beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.) John 6:64

 

[posthuman]

these things are COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. That makes them WORKS OF GOD and NOT works of men. So, YES, we ARE saved by works. The scriptures support this.

Hi Beckworth!

are yous still saved today?

good luck!

 

[posthuman]

"However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the
beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.) John 6:64

i notice it says" which did not believe"
and not, "which would believe for a little bit but then later, not anymore"

hmmmm..

 

[Rufus]

hmmm...
is God expressing His omniscience here or His ignorance?

John 6:68-70​

But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"​

In other words, "one of you" is a seed of the devil -- a theological-spiritual concept established immediately after the Fall. Judas was a child of the devil every much as the Pharisees were his children as well.

 

[Magenta]

In other words, "one of you" is a seed of the devil -- a theological-spiritual concept established immediately
after the Fall. Judas was a child of the devil every much as the Pharisees were his children as well.

Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

 

[Jimbone]

Are you aware that Jesus said “faith” is a work? John 6:28-29. And Paul said “faith” is a work? 2 Thess. 1:11.and again in 1 Thess. 1:3.? Since God says “faith” is a work, and YOU say we are NOT saved by works, then you have just thrown out “faith” as necessary for salvation. God says without faith it is impossible to please Him. “You are mistaken not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.” Matt. 22:29. There are “bad” works talked about in the scriptures and there are “good” works talked about in the scriptures. The Devil has done a good job of convincing men that ALL works are bad. But that’s not true. There are WORKS OF GOD that even the disciples realized we MUST DO. Jesus never condemned anyone for doing His “works”. He never accused them of “earning their salvation “. Or condemned them for “working their way to heaven”. You have been listening to MEN—more importantly to Satan. It makes sense that Satan does not want you to do anything; he does not want you to do the works of God So he has invented this big smear campaign against ALL works! He has made “works.” A dirty word. It’s a big lie! If “faith” is a work of God, then so is “repentance;” and so is “confession”; and so is “baptism.” They are works of God because 1) He says so, and 2) because they originate with HIM not men; isn’t this what he asked the Jews “John’s baptism; is it from heaven or from men?” Obviously it was from heaven. It originated with God. How much more the baptism of Jesus Christ? And 3) these things are COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. That makes them WORKS OF GOD and NOT works of men. So, YES, we ARE saved by works. The scriptures support this.

Okay......
Well nothing you said changes the FACT that if you believe salvation can be lost then you are trusting in your works (or ability to obey) to save you. Period and there's no way around it. I really don't see how your reply even has anything at all to do with my comment you were replying to, but it didn't even touch my main point. If you think that salvation can be lost after we are born again then you believe in a works based gospel and trust in your works for salvation. This is just how it is and there's no real way to argue your way out of this blatant truth. If anyone believes that true salvation can be lost, then you fall into this category by definition. There's no way around it.

 

[Rufus]

Okay......
Well nothing you said changes the FACT that if you believe salvation can be lost then you are trusting in your works (or ability to obey) to save you. Period and there's no way around it. I really don't see how your reply even has anything at all to do with my comment you were replying to, but it didn't even touch my main point. If you think that salvation can be lost after we are born again then you believe in a works based gospel and trust in your works for salvation. This is just how it is and there's no real way to argue your way out of this blatant truth. If anyone believes that true salvation can be lost, then you fall into this category by definition. There's no way around it.

Your logic is spot one. If Christians believe that they can lose their salvation, then it follows logically it's theirs to lose or not to lose, just as much as it their bad works or good works, respectively, that ensures one result or the other.. God is not losing the grace, mercy, compassion, love, the gifts of faith and repentance he bestows upon his objects, or the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. . Neither is he not losing the gift of salvation he gives to his people. I've never heard anyone non-Reformed person that they they can lose God's salvation. It's always THEIR salvation. It's always theirs to lose or keep. Always their ultimate responsibility to do what must be done.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are we not all made in God's image? Being made in God's image cannot be taken to mean perfect for many reasons, since, again, we are perfected in Christ, and they were of the natural world. This very salient fact seems to be absent from many people's theology.

We are talking about Adam and Eve before the fall.. Not after. So I am honestly not sure what your asking sis