Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Musicmaster]

I would respectfully suggest (and you'll probably become angry with me for saying this) that, rather than leaving your Israeli family and friends with a false sense of eternal comfort and security, you share with them the message of Jesus Christ as Savior and sole path to eternal salvation and life.

[Act 4:11-12 KJV]
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Actually, Roger, yes. I've shared Paul's Gospel with them, and they instead gravitated over to the Kingdom Gospel instead, harboring considerable confusions, thinking that works supplement their salvation rather than it being Christ alone, by grace through faith. They believe what the masses of churchianity spews out there to the their audiences.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Works-based salvation, which is generally a mixture of works as a supplement to the Blood of Christ as if that Blood was riddled with a measure of ineffectiveness to save completely, that is the status quo of churchianity. None of them have gone over to the works-based religion of Roman Catholicism, but they aren't far from that within Protestantism. Protestants don't realize just how Roman Catholic they are with the traditional teachings of tithing, which is utterly false, works where they deny eating of certain meats, charity as a requirement rather than a thing from the heart, on and on the list goes. It's one thing to do GOOD works as the outflow from true salvation, but quite another when it's a duty of works, which is very much an outflow from the Law.

No worries, my friend. I'm not angry with your suggestion. I very much appreciate your thoughts. When it comes down to it, I'm concerned for far more than just my family. Historic Judaism is like a poison of the mind and soul. Fixation on works has spilled out from us Jews over into much of what is called "Protestantism." I hate that. THAT is what makes me angry. My family doesn't see any comfort in relying solely on the shed Blood of Christ when elements of Judaism still seeps out from their marrow...so to speak.

The Gospel Jesus gave only to Paul was/is faith in the death of Jesus, His burial for three days and His resurrection...no works required at all.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I hate how we as humans are always accosted with feelings for the need to do works in order to try and gain the Lord's favor toward earning salvation at some future time. That's just not true for today in this period of grace. The tribulation will once again be the time when they will have to endure under their own strength to the very end of their lives in order to be saved, contrasted with us right now who are saved by grace through faith, and therefore sealed by Holy Spirit, which is never said of those who will pass into the tribulation.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[rogerg]

Actually, Roger, yes. I've shared Paul's Gospel with them, and they instead gravitated over to the Kingdom Gospel instead, harboring considerable confusions, thinking that works supplement their salvation rather than it being Christ alone, by grace through faith. They believe what the masses of churchianity spews out there to the their audiences.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Works-based salvation, which is generally a mixture of works as a supplement to the Blood of Christ as if that Blood was riddled with a measure of ineffectiveness to save completely, that is the status quo of churchianity. None of them have gone over to the works-based religion of Roman Catholicism, but they aren't far from that within Protestantism. Protestants don't realize just how Roman Catholic they are with the traditional teachings of tithing, which is utterly false, works where they deny eating of certain meats, charity as a requirement rather than a thing from the heart, on and on the list goes. It's one thing to do GOOD works as the outflow from true salvation, but quite another when it's a duty of works, which is very much an outflow from the Law.

No worries, my friend. I'm not angry with your suggestion. I very much appreciate your thoughts. When it comes down to it, I'm concerned for far more than just my family. Historic Judaism is like a poison of the mind and soul. Fixation on works has spilled out from us Jews over into much of what is called "Protestantism." I hate that. THAT is what makes me angry. My family doesn't see any comfort in relying solely on the shed Blood of Christ when elements of Judaism still seeps out from their marrow...so to speak.

The Gospel Jesus gave only to Paul was/is faith in the death of Jesus, His burial for three days and His resurrection...no works required at all.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I hate how we as humans are always accosted with feelings for the need to do works in order to try and gain the Lord's favor toward earning salvation at some future time. That's just not true for today in this period of grace. The tribulation will once again be the time when they will have to endure under their own strength to the very end of their lives in order to be saved, contrasted with us right now who are saved by grace through faith, and therefore sealed by Holy Spirit, which is never said of those who will pass into the tribulation.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

Don't agree with the different gospels part but appreciate your reply.
Roger

 

[Musicmaster]

Don't agree with the different gospels part but appreciate your reply.
Roger

Perhaps in time you will have time to study it in more detail, and see the differences. I too resisted this for a time, thinking that it all was consistent, one with another, but then I began to consider how we do not adopt the OT requirements, such as going out to build an ark, to be circumcised, or to celebrate the festivals and observances, although I did in days past, and we don't stone rebellious children and homosexuals, build fences around the edge of our roofs, wear clothing of only one fiber type, never wearing cloths of mixed fiber, et al.

All of that is to say that we do indeed disregard those things that are glaringly different, and yet overlook the differences in the Lord's dealings with Israel versus the Gentiles. Under the Gospels, it was ONLY Jews who were given the oracles of God, but when Paul came along, we suddenly see see Gentiles brought in as oracles of God, and see none of that in the letter from James nor in the letter to the Hebrews. The differences begin to scream once those things, among many others, that are brought into the mind of the reader for to see the differences.

Granted, those things of the Kingdom Gospel will once again take effect as the sole basis for salvation, with the removal of grace at the departure of Holy Spirit to allow Satan and his man of sin to take control of the world of men and bring about the horrific evils yet to come with the destruction of half of all humanity throughout those seven years.

Blessings to you and yours on this Shabbat (a day within which I will exercise and go out shopping with my wife, much to my family's horror...).

MM

 

[rogerg]

Perhaps in time you will have time to study it in more detail, and see the differences. I too resisted this for a time, thinking that it all was consistent, one with another, but then I began to consider how we do not adopt the OT requirements, such as going out to build an ark, to be circumcised, or to celebrate the festivals and observances, although I did in days past, and we don't stone rebellious children and homosexuals, build fences around the edge of our roofs, wear clothing of only one fiber type, never wearing cloths of mixed fiber, et al.

All of that is to say that we do indeed disregard those things that are glaringly different, and yet overlook the differences in the Lord's dealings with Israel versus the Gentiles. Under the Gospels, it was ONLY Jews who were given the oracles of God, but when Paul came along, we suddenly see see Gentiles brought in as oracles of God, and see none of that in the letter from James nor in the letter to the Hebrews. The differences begin to scream once those things, among many others, that are brought into the mind of the reader for to see the differences.

Granted, those things of the Kingdom Gospel will once again take effect as the sole basis for salvation, with the removal of grace at the departure of Holy Spirit to allow Satan and his man of sin to take control of the world of men and bring about the horrific evils yet to come with the destruction of half of all humanity throughout those seven years.

Blessings to you and yours on this Shabbat (a day within which I will exercise and go out shopping with my wife, much to my family's horror...).

MM

Okay MM thank you and wishing the same to you and yours.
Perhaps we can resume the discussion of different gospels in the near future - it is an interesting topic.

Roger

 

[Rufus]

Let's get context going in this:

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

So, looking at the above, we see that the condition of "abide" on the part of the human is required to receive the empowerment from the Lord to bear fruit. The fact that there is an EXCEPTION, stated in verse 4, "...except it abide in the vine...," there is therefore a REQUIREMENT on the part of the human. Trying to nullify the requirement on the part of a human with "do nothing," and thus pitting the Lord's own words against Him, that is not how the student of the Bible conducts himself within the parametric rules for interpretation.

Nowhere does that verse, or any other, say anything about perseverance being a gift from God. If you think its there, then please point it out, because Thayer's Greek Lexicon disagrees with you also:

"to remain: dead bodies ἐπί τοῦ σταυροῦ, John 19:31; τό κλῆμα ἐν τῇ ἀμπέλῳ, John 15:4. "

I don't see in that context even a hint of the Lord forcing any of them to "remain," to tarry. Do you?

MM

What part of "without me ye can do nothing" don't you understand? That means even the abiding his disciples are to do. And who said anything about "forcing". How can God "force" himself upon helpless, powerless people? Is that what you think He did when he "came down" to rescue the Israelities from their bondage to Pharaoh? God forced himself upon the helpless Israelites?

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Musicmaster, post: 5360098, member: 305060"]So, in all that, you believe the Lord goes back on His promises made to righteous men long gone, concerning their descendants? If anything is fallacious, it's the parallels you're trying to draw into what I said, as if there is another nation, or kingdom, or whatever one may with to call it. This mass confusion you employ here is antithetical to what is written:

Romans 11:1-6
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Yes, Israel is also under the Gospel of Grace, and many of them who reject Christ to this day will be dealt with by the Lord in the tribulation, with 1/3 of them ALL being saved after the other 2/3rds are killed, and they will look upon Him whom they had pierced, and mourn as if for a first born son. (Zechariah 10). They were unbelievers in Christ up to that day, but will see Him and ALL be saved. Many a Gentile doesn't like that, and that's their problem, not ours. As a believer in Christ Jesus, I will dwell in Heavenly places like the rest of the body of Christ, but my brethren who refused faith in Messiah up to that day, they will inhabit the Millennial Kingdom, and will live in the New Jerusalem on the new earth along with the believing ancients of Israel in that eternal Kingdom, while the body of Christ dwells in Heaven as fulfillment of the reconciliation of the Heavens.

Again, most Gentiles don't like any of this, which is their problem.

MM [/QUOTE]

I explained the red bolded part previously. God did not go back on any of his promises. He has been and is fulfilling them SPIRITUALLY through His Son Jesus Christ in whom all of God's promises are YES! For the last 2,000 years or so, God has been making a GREAT nation from Abraham; for Abraham is the [spiritual] father of all those who believe. Ethnicity doesn't mean diddly squat to God! Isn't God the God of the Gentiles as well as of the Jews (Rom 3:29).

Therefore, God does not have two nations: physical, ethnic Israel and the Body of Christ. He has only the latter. You can't see this because you keep reading the OT back into the NT, which is hermeneutically backwards. Instead, you should be understanding the Old in light of the New's fulfillment -- or as Roger said yesterday in light of the New Covenant's Fulfillment Theology.

 

[Rufus]

Perhaps in time you will have time to study it in more detail, and see the differences. I too resisted this for a time, thinking that it all was consistent, one with another, but then I began to consider how we do not adopt the OT requirements, such as going out to build an ark, to be circumcised, or to celebrate the festivals and observances, although I did in days past, and we don't stone rebellious children and homosexuals, build fences around the edge of our roofs, wear clothing of only one fiber type, never wearing cloths of mixed fiber, et al.

All of that is to say that we do indeed disregard those things that are glaringly different, and yet overlook the differences in the Lord's dealings with Israel versus the Gentiles. Under the Gospels, it was ONLY Jews who were given the oracles of God, but when Paul came along, we SUDDENLY see see Gentiles brought in as oracles of God, and see none of that in the letter from James nor in the letter to the Hebrews. The differences begin to scream once those things, among many others, that are brought into the mind of the reader for to see the differences. (emphasis mine)

Granted, those things of the Kingdom Gospel will once again take effect as the sole basis for salvation, with the removal of grace at the departure of Holy Spirit to allow Satan and his man of sin to take control of the world of men and bring about the horrific evils yet to come with the destruction of half of all humanity throughout those seven years.

Blessings to you and yours on this Shabbat (a day within which I will exercise and go out shopping with my wife, much to my family's horror...).

MM

Surely you jest? "Suddenly". The OT is replete with prophecies concerning God's intentions to save the Gentiles! And for your info, all the NT epistles harmonize with Pauline Theology. It's not necessary to create false dichotomies.

 

[Rufus]

Mr. MusicMaster, I have two questions for you regarding this passage:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
NIV


When does all this happen: "coming of the Lord", the "day of of judgment and destruction of ungodly men", the "day [when] the Lord will come like a thief", when the heavens and the earth will be destroyed, when the promise of a "new heaven and new earth" will be fulfilled: Before of after the 1,000-year earthly kingdom is established?

And secondly, which home (singular) is the "home of righteousness in v. 13: the new heaven or the new earth? Or is it both, as Peter said: the ONE home of righteousness is the new heaven and new earth? But if the latter, how could this possibly be? Logically speaking, why didn't Peter speak of two homes -- one in heaven and one on the earth? How can there not logically be two distinct homes since two distinct peoples will supposedly be residing in two different places for all eternity? Can you explain this?

 

[SaysWhat]

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

Different gospels to two different apostles. What's also amazing is the debate as to who wrote Hebrews. Paul could not have written that letter since he clearly stated that what he had received, the Gospel of Grace, was not taught to him by men, but only through Christ Jesus only.

So, yes, for something to be a mystery, with Paul declaring that it was revealed to Him by Christ, it was not known to anyone else on this earth, given that it is written that the mystery was sealed up in God from the creation of the world. One can kick against that rock of truth, but all they do is break their own toes.

MM

Good thing for steel toe boots, breaking a toe isn't comfortable.

 

[Magenta]

From Acts 15:20 plus 28

 

[Musicmaster]

What part of "without me ye can do nothing" don't you understand? That means even the abiding his disciples are to do. And who said anything about "forcing". How can God "force" himself upon helpless, powerless people? Is that what you think He did when he "came down" to rescue the Israelities from their bondage to Pharaoh? God forced himself upon the helpless Israelites?

If we look back at the context of what Christ was talking about, the core topic was bearing fruit. He said nothing about doing the endurance FOR them, but that they could only bear fruit on the basis of His empowerment.
Dare we think about all that, it makes sense, in that we can only bear fruit that is pleasing to Him by allowing Him to guide the works in the direction that will bear forth what He sees as acceptable fruit.

Jamming into His words other things that He did not state as an element of His empowerment, such as abiding in Him, especially when He stated "IF ye abide in me...," that clearly speaks of an effort on the part of the Israelites. We don't just sit back and let Him choose the color of our socks for the day... He expects us to do our part, and with His being Deity, He has ever right to lay down SOME expectation upon the promises of His empowerment.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

From Acts 15:20 plus 28

Therein is the entirety of the Law for abstaining that the apostles laid down upon the Gentiles. My Jewish family would have be to feel bad about my having adopted the belief that the Law is no more binding upon me as an Israeli, but it is what it is.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Good thing for steel toe boots, breaking a toe isn't comfortable.

That's cheating...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Mr. MusicMaster, I have two questions for you regarding this passage:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
NIV


When does all this happen: "coming of the Lord", the "day of of judgment and destruction of ungodly men", the "day [when] the Lord will come like a thief", when the heavens and the earth will be destroyed, when the promise of a "new heaven and new earth" will be fulfilled: Before of after the 1,000-year earthly kingdom is established?

And secondly, which home (singular) is the "home of righteousness in v. 13: the new heaven or the new earth? Or is it both, as Peter said: the ONE home of righteousness is the new heaven and new earth? But if the latter, how could this possibly be? Logically speaking, why didn't Peter speak of two homes -- one in heaven and one on the earth? How can there not logically be two distinct homes since two distinct peoples will supposedly be residing in two different places for all eternity? Can you explain this?

When will the tribulation begin? Well, we have this from Christ:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As to where the body of Christ will dwell for all eternity, we have this:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

An interesting facet for reconciliation is this:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says about the usage of the term "reconcile" in this passage, it's definition is this:

"to draw to himself by reconciliation, or so to reconcile that they should be devoted to himself, Colossians 1:20 "

I'll go this far in that discussion, but it is food for thought for what is coming in HIs plans for us... It goes to what will be in store for us in Heaven as the body of Christ...

MM

 

[Rufus]

If we look back at the context of what Christ was talking about, the core topic was bearing fruit. He said nothing about doing the endurance FOR them, but that they could only bear fruit on the basis of His empowerment.
Dare we think about all that, it makes sense, in that we can only bear fruit that is pleasing to Him by allowing Him to guide the works in the direction that will bear forth what He sees as acceptable fruit.

Jamming into His words other things that He did not state as an element of His empowerment, such as abiding in Him, especially when He stated "IF ye abide in me...," that clearly speaks of an effort on the part of the Israelites. We don't just sit back and let Him choose the color of our socks for the day... He expects us to do our part, and with His being Deity, He has ever right to lay down SOME expectation upon the promises of His empowerment.

MM

But he did say that they could do nothing APART from him! NOTHING. As I stated earlier, that would certainly include his empowerment of persevering grace because no true fruit can be borne apart from ongoing continuance in him, which itself requires perseverance. In fact, sir, this truth is taught in the Parable of the Four Soils:

Luke 8:15
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
NIV

So, tell me: HOW did those of the "good soil" come by their "noble and good heart", retain it and persevere? How do the unregenerate with exceedingly wicked and deceitful hearts and who drink evil like water come by "noble and good heart"?

 

[Musicmaster]

But he did say that they could do nothing APART from him! NOTHING. As I stated earlier, that would certainly include his empowerment of persevering grace because no true fruit can be borne apart from ongoing continuance in him, which itself requires perseverance. In fact, sir, this truth is taught in the Parable of the Four Soils:

Luke 8:15
15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
NIV

So, tell me: HOW did those of the "good soil" come by their "noble and good heart", retain it and persevere? How do the unregenerate with exceedingly wicked and deceitful hearts and who drink evil like water come by "noble and good heart"?

I don't know what else one can say when it comes to reading the text for what it says and what it does not say. Jesus clearly instructed them to do something, which is to endure, and no promise was made for that one item among the items of bearing fruit. Etherealizing the text to make it say whatever you want it to say, that's strictly on you, not anyone else. Why would He instruct them to do something if He's going to do it for them? That makes no sense.

MM

 

[Rufus]

When will the tribulation begin? Well, we have this from Christ:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As to where the body of Christ will dwell for all eternity, we have this:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

An interesting facet for reconciliation is this:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says about the usage of the term "reconcile" in this passage, it's definition is this:

"to draw to himself by reconciliation, or so to reconcile that they should be devoted to himself, Colossians 1:20 "

I'll go this far in that discussion, but it is food for thought for what is coming in HIs plans for us... It goes to what will be in store for us in Heaven as the body of Christ...

MM

I didn't ask you when the tribulation begins. Go back and read my first question carefully, please. If I wanted a time reference to the tribulation with respect to the passage, I would have framed my question accordingly. Instead I specifically want to know about the things Peter explicitly mentioned in his teaching and their reference to the 1,000-year so-called earthly millennial kingdom. Do those things occur before or after the millennial kingdom? Simple question, really.... For example, does the Recreation of the universe happen before or after the earthly kingdom?

And you didn't answer my second question at all. How can there be one "home for righteousness" when two different groups of people will be spending eternity a gazillion light years away from each other in two different places?

 

[Rufus]

I don't know what else one can say when it comes to reading the text for what it says and what it does not say. Jesus clearly instructed them to do something, which is to endure, and no promise was made for that one item among the items of bearing fruit. Etherealizing the text to make it say whatever you want it to say, that's strictly on you, not anyone else. Why would He instruct them to do something if He's going to do it for them? That makes no sense.

MM

Well Jesus clearly made the imminently logical connection (that you can't or won't make) between persevering and fruit bearing in Lk 8:15.

And yet He said that they COULD DO NOTHING apart from him! If what made sense to Jesus doesn't make sense to you, then you need to take that up with him in earnest prayer and supplication and study of the scriptures. You make the classical non-Reformed error that the commands in the bible imply man's inherent spiritual ability to keep them when their ultimate purpose is to make man keenly aware of both his duty before God, his utterly helpless spiritual estate, and to keep man's conscience sensitive to God's will.

 

[Rufus]

When will the tribulation begin? Well, we have this from Christ:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As to where the body of Christ will dwell for all eternity, we have this:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

An interesting facet for reconciliation is this:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says about the usage of the term "reconcile" in this passage, it's definition is this:

"to draw to himself by reconciliation, or so to reconcile that they should be devoted to himself, Colossians 1:20 "

I'll go this far in that discussion, but it is food for thought for what is coming in HIs plans for us... It goes to what will be in store for us in Heaven as the body of Christ...

MM

Oh yeah...I forgot: "a building of God"...."eternal in the heavens" (plural) is Christ himself (2Cor 5:1). Don't forget: It was God who raised up Christ from the dead and who now sits on his throne at the right hand of his Father in heaven. Also, Jesus himself is the builder (1Cor 3:10) and He's God's temple! Also you ignore the verb tense.. "we HAVE..." as in right now, presently. And that is true because when we die we go immediately to heaven to await our final redemption, i.e. our bodies.

 

[Magenta]

Therein is the entirety of the Law for abstaining that the apostles laid down upon the Gentiles. My Jewish family would have me to feel bad about my having adopted the belief that the Law is no more binding upon me as an Israeli, but it is what it is.

MM

Indeed, it is! I was raised RC but quit the church as a teen... and did not convert until I was almost fifty!
Both my mother and my oldest brother questioned why I was getting baptized... again... heh, as if my
infant baptism had done anything for me! Anyways, though it is not your cup of tea, here is the original
verse I mentioned the other day, also from Acts 15. I had started it late last year but never finished it
until today, so this looks to be the first time I am posting it...

From Acts 15:10-11 ~ Why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? We believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.
Thank you for the inspiration! .