Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

Are you really that confused?

Or, is it just an act?

It's like teaching algebra to someone who doesn't know how to count.

 

[Genez]

No, I learned morality by watching you commit sin.

I learned by trusting God's word as true and finding it actually worked. None of us are righteous by our own reckoning. We are made righteous through faith. Even Jesus, in His humanity, relied on the word of God to be made right.

You seem to be having a very hard time understanding how we learn and become right about what's good and evil.

Jesus answered, “It is written....​

​

‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ Matthew 4:4​

First believers must seek till they find the Word in accuracy offered in their generation, and then learn .
Next: Guard what is learned in your heart.

Then we can come to know as we mature... That, if something is in agreement with sound doctrine? Its "good."
And, if something distorts, and wavers off course from what sound doctrine tells us? Its "evil."

Over time grace will cause what we benefitted from knowing sound doctrine to overflow into all areas of our thinking.

But... Some live in a one dimensional sense of things. They really want to live under some form of Law.



grace and peace. (gravy and peas)

 

[Genez]

It's like teaching algebra to someone who doesn't know how to count.

You can show them something that is truth.
But, they can never know Y.


....

 

[PaulThomson]

You’re speaking of Paul’s argument why he doesn’t allow women to speak and tbat women Remain in silence and full subjection ?

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

should we not look more into this he appears to be saying it’s the woman’s fault not the man’s the man didn’t transgress the woman did…

therefore no female should have the right to speak but to be silent and she must be in full subjection to the man , but she can still be saved through painful childbirth if she continues in verity and faith “

This doesn’t seem like a sound thing to conclude it seems Paul’s talking about genesis three and tbe curses of sin let’s look at what happened in sequence

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭

before eve is made

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After eve is made

“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The serpent asks her about what God said she answers in the affirmative she knows and thinks it she is afraid to eat the fruit because of what god said.

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

eve knows too is my point she answered correctly that’s what she thinks about the fruit and until now the truth is keeping them safe.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: ( another doctrine emerges about the fruit opposes to Gods word ) for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

She thought it was fine to eat what God told them was poison then she pursuaded her husband who also knew God commandment

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, ( eve spread the lie they both knew the truth from God they both heard the lie eve from the serpent and she ate and Adam from eve and he ate )

and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:

cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬


eve was the one who first ate the fruit is pauls point eve spread the first false doctrine that’s why he’s saying he doesn’t allow women to teach because she was deceived and spread the lie . the serpent spoke to her and she ate the fruit. for this she was cursed to become subject to the man before this they were partners

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; ( saved in childbearing ) and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”( she was made subject to the man because of her transgression )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls talking about that curse placed on eve.

what you are saying or that verse doesn’t change what I’m saying. eve hesrd the serpent then her belief about the fruit changed from what God said …..that’s what happened to cause the problem is my point . Then eve spoke to adam and he ate the fruit too …..

false doctrine does it to people it’s the same with the gospel. If we accept what God said we will live , if we let the serpent snatch it away we will die

It seems to me that the first belief to change was Eve's perception of God. Satan told her God was lying to her to keep her from emjoying something that would be good for her.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan first induced Eve to entertain a false image of God. Then Eve felt justified in distrusting God's word. Then she acted in unbelief toward God and disobeyed.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It seems to me that the first belief to change was Eve's perception of God. Satan told her God was lying to her to keep her from emjoying something that would be good for her.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan first induced Eve to entertain a false image of God. Then Eve felt justified in distrusting God's word. Then she acted in unbelief toward God and disobeyed.

“It seems to me that the first belief to change was Eve's perception of God. Satan told her God was lying to her to keep her from emjoying something that would be good for her.”

I agree he altered her perception of God . If you look here at what it was God told them about the particular fruit of certain death

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then look at what eve answered when he asked her about the same exact subject as the commandment . Look what he attacks

“And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden true )

but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (She’s shown us her belief and she hasn’t eaten it yet )

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: ( this is his first lie it’s about the fruit God said would cause thier death )

for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”( now there’s something else to believe a reason to eat it even though god said don’t do it )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can clearly see the effect that it had when combined together the lie and the motivation like you are saying her perception that God was against them in some manner or lying to with hold a good thing . Her mind is literally shown to have changed about the fruit

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( God has said it’s certain death , Satan said it wasn’t ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes,

and a tree to be desired to make one wise, ( you will be as gods ) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

…And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

til this God has blessed them only now they sinned and hide from him. Satans intent was death to mankind . It’s why he went after this command

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can see how his focus was the fruit and man’s eating it because Hod said it’s going to surely bring death .

He can’t make them eat it but he can lie about it and put it out there for them to accept and then die through transgression

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:44‬ ‭

I do think there’s a lot to what your saying there

 

[Gideon300]

How can you disqualify yourself. When in reality all of us are disqualified int he first place. And the reason we need “born again” by God

Easy. 1 Corinthians 6:9. Some use this to bash unbelievers. Paul is speaking to Christians. Only those who are born again can even see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3). There are a number of warnings to Christians to avoid behaviours and attitudes that will shut them out of the Kingdom of God.

This is not an issue of heaven or hell. That is settled at the new birth. That's why Paul says that being forgiven is not a licence to sin. I'm not convinced that the Church generally takes the Kingdom of God seriously enough.

This life is a spiritual "boot camp" to prepare us for eternity. Some choose to be purified and refined (2 Timothy 2:21 & 22), some are unwilling to be changed. (Only Jesus can deliver us, all He requires from us is our willingness.) That's why Jesus said that if we seek to save our (soul) life, we will lose it. If we will lose the self of the soul in favour of the life of Christ, we will find it. The more of self we lose, the more of Christ we gain.

 

[Inquisitor]

What does any of that have to do with learning good and evil? Are you saying we are incapable of learning the difference?

To understand the difference between good and evil is not hard to do.

It is the application of the spiritual gifts and especially that of divine love.

It's praying without ceasing, confessing Jesus, putting others first. Spending
lot's of time with the broken, those with life's baggage. Setting a good example
at all times.

Now that's where the difficulty arises.

That's where the real conflict between the flesh and the Spirit takes place.

 

[posthuman]

No, I learned morality by watching you commit sin.

I learned by trusting God's word as true and finding it actually worked. None of us are righteous by our own reckoning. We are made righteous through faith. Even Jesus, in His humanity, relied on the word of God to be made right.

You seem to be having a very hard time understanding how we learn and become right about what's good and evil.

why does God say only about Adam he has become like one of us, not Woman, and not until after Adam has changed her name to Eve and God has clothed them?

 

[posthuman]

Jesus answered, “It is written....​

​

‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ Matthew 4:4​

First believers must seek till they find the Word in accuracy offered in their generation, and then learn .
Next: Guard what is learned in your heart.

Then we can come to know as we mature... That, if something is in agreement with sound doctrine? Its "good."
And, if something distorts, and wavers off course from what sound doctrine tells us? Its "evil."

Over time grace will cause what we benefitted from knowing sound doctrine to overflow into all areas of our thinking.

But... Some live in a one dimensional sense of things. They really want to live under some form of Law.



grace and peace. (gravy and peas)

how does Adam know it's good to believe and obey God?

only by committing sin, like Satan said?

'learn from his mistakes'?

that's your answer?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Easy. 1 Corinthians 6:9. Some use this to bash unbelievers. Paul is speaking to Christians. Only those who are born again can even see the Kingdom of God (John 3:3). There are a number of warnings to Christians to avoid behaviours and attitudes that will shut them out of the Kingdom of God.

This is not an issue of heaven or hell. That is settled at the new birth. That's why Paul says that being forgiven is not a licence to sin. I'm not convinced that the Church generally takes the Kingdom of God seriously enough.

This life is a spiritual "boot camp" to prepare us for eternity. Some choose to be purified and refined (2 Timothy 2:21 & 22), some are unwilling to be changed. (Only Jesus can deliver us, all He requires from us is our willingness.) That's why Jesus said that if we seek to save our (soul) life, we will lose it. If we will lose the self of the soul in favour of the life of Christ, we will find it. The more of self we lose, the more of Christ we gain.

once again

1. You can not earn salvation. You will NEVER be qualified to enter heaven. no matter how good you think you are
2. If you can never be qualified to enter heaven, you can never unqualify yourself from entering heaven.

Salvation is Gods gift. Its not something you can earn. and as such, not something you can un earn.

Its all on Christ.. If salvation can be lost. that's on God. not the individual who he saved, gave eternal life and the eternal promise based on his work. not theirs.

 

[sawdust]

why does God say only about Adam he has become like one of us, not Woman, and not until after Adam has changed her name to Eve and God has clothed them?

What has your question got to do with how a human learns good and evil? If you have a point make it. Stop beating around with 20 questions. So far, all you've done is side step with responses that have no bearing on what I'm actually talking about.

 

[posthuman]

What has your question got to do with how a human learns good and evil? If you have a point make it. Stop beating around with 20 questions. So far, all you've done is side step with responses that have no bearing on what I'm actually talking about.

so far, you have not answered my question, so i keep asking.

do you agree with Satan, that Adam and Woman only gained a basic sense of right and wrong by committing sin?

why then would God have only said this about Adam, not Woman/Eve, and why not when they ate the fruit, but only after Adam changed her name and God clothed them?

 

[Lamar]

I would define grace as God's unconditional love for us.

God's love is conditional in the context of the current OP. I have not heard it described as "unconditional love".

Grace is so much more than just showing favor towards someone.

Christ gave His life for you and that reconciliation given to us as a gift.
Cannot be anything less than the highest form of love.

Okay but the definition still stands.
grace
noun
ˈgrās
1
a: unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance
2
a: approval, favor stayed in his good graces
b: archaic : mercy, pardon
c: a special favor : privilege
d: disposition to or an act or instance of kindness, courtesy, or clemency
e: a temporary exemption : reprieve

 

[Pilgrimshope]

so far, you have not answered my question, so i keep asking.

do you agree with Satan, that Adam and Woman only gained a basic sense of right and wrong by committing sin?

why then would God have only said this about Adam, not Woman/Eve, and why not when they ate the fruit, but only after Adam changed her name and God clothed them?

We weren’t ever supposed to learn good and evil it’s not for man to be as gods were meant to be the image of God and follow only what he says that’s fsith

faith has nothing to do with good and evil but hearing Gods word and walking in it

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they never were meant to designed to partake of the fruit it’s what caused our human conundrum

This is man’s fallen state not our desing from God

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. ( eve I’m isn’t meant to be in mankinds mind and heart we can’t manage and control it it’s not meant fornus to know good and evil it never was we are meant to just listen to what God tells us and believe )

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:18, 21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When they transgressed and ate the forbidden by God fruit , they caused that condlfict of good and evil in man’s minds and hearts

we need to let go of good and evil and just hear from Jesus and believe him he’s always going to lead us the right way

 

[Lamar]

No.

Really? So why did the other servants report the unforgiving servants actions to the master if the unforgiving servant had refused the grace of his own debt?

Was the master unaware that the unforgiving servant had rejected his grace?

Why did the master feel the need to revoke the forgiveness of the debt of the unforgiving servant?

His cancelled debt was the result of the grace of his master. The servant's failure to accept that grace and rest in it like Paul did (rejection of grace) meant he had no grace (power) to forgive others. Had he truly accepted the grace of the master for what it was, he would have been a different man, ie. a forgiving man.

This is theological nonsense. You are simply grasping at straws.

The parable is clear, grace can be revoked.

 

[posthuman]

Really? So why did the other servants report the unforgiving servants actions to the master if the unforgiving servant had refused the grace of his own debt?

Was the master unaware that the unforgiving servant had rejected his grace?

Why did the master feel the need to revoke the forgiveness of the debt of the unforgiving servant?


This is theological nonsense. You are simply grasping at straws.

The parable is clear, grace can be revoked.

Christ calls him a wicked servant.
there is no indication he was ever saved.

he represents the Pharisees in the parable, persecuting the saints and rejecting his Master, Christ-God.

 

[Genez]

how does Adam know it's good to believe and obey God?

only by committing sin, like Satan said?

'learn from his mistakes'?

that's your answer?

I say something pertaining to believers?
And, you want to throw in pre-fallen Adam who did not function like a believer now does?

 

[Genez]

To understand the difference between good and evil is not hard to do.

You say, to understand the difference between good and evil is not hard to do?
Good for you! You were born fallen into a world engulfed in good and evil.

Adam was placed in a world devoid of evil. Never knew evil.

No comparison.

 

[Genez]

how does Adam know it's good to believe and obey God?

only by committing sin, like Satan said?

'learn from his mistakes'?

that's your answer?

You keep thinking from a fallen man's perspective. Your own.

 

[posthuman]

You keep thinking from a fallen man's perspective. Your own.

did Adam know God isn't evil? how?

should Woman have known whether it was Satan or God who was lying to her? how?

why did God not say of Eve that she had become like one of us, and why did He not say this until Adam had changed her name, and God had clothed them?