What? is it true God took away sin on that cross or not?

[Pilgrimshope]

I got my first computer in 2000. My teenage daughter had one before I ever did.

She showed me a lot of the remedial things, like keyboard short cuts for cut and paste.

I still use a lot of those. What would I do without cut and paste?

Because I still use it in my designs, and also on the boards here.

Especially for copying Scripture verses, to lessen the chance of any mistake being made...

There's lots of things I do not understand about how computers work.

And even in Photoshop, where I use "tools" to perform specific tasks, I do not know the logistics
of how all that happens. The programmers wrote code that allows us to do everything we do on
these devices, based on yes and no, on and off, binary code. And now there are even apps with all
this AI becoming more and more widespread and available, where people could probably just tell
some app, create and combine a woman's face on a background with floral elements and add this
Scripture verse and the program could do it all. That really would be much more like waving a magic
wand than what I do LOL. But I have not seen my check book for ages. I pay bills by phone .

I just saw your response now...

And the caveman looks with a confused look and says “ unga bunga “ fire…ooooh

 

[DavyP]

Before salvation is someone dead in sin?

After salvation can someone still sin?

I recommend you study what Apostle Paul taught about our struggle between our flesh and our spirit per Romans 7. Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save our flesh. He came to save our 'spirit' with 'soul' that is inside our flesh.

Apostle Paul covers this distinction between sin/flesh death and Faith/eternal life of our spirit, per Romans 6. Below is an excerpt of that teaching, which I find many struggle with because they don't really understand what part of our being that God created is saved by Christ.

Rom 6:3-12
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Our Faith on Jesus' death and resurrection Paul compares to being like a baptism, a spiritual baptism upon our spirit that is inside our flesh. Continuing to read what Paul says here will reveal that "newness of life" is about our 'spirit' putting on immortality in the world to come.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:

That above is a pivot point where many brethren struggle with the idea of our spirit vs. our flesh. At the resurrection, just what did Apostle Paul show in 1 Corinthians 15 that is raised, our old flesh body in ground, or our spirit? Some Churches still preach old Jewish traditions about the resurrection involving a new flesh body, claiming our flesh is raised from the casket when Paul did not teach that. Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that we shall not all sleep, but that we 'all'... shall be "changed", meaning changed to the "spiritual body", which is the type body of the future resurrection per Paul. That must be understood in order to properly understand what Paul covers here next...

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The above is where many modern Bible translations insert man-made humanist-humanity doctrines. Apostle Paul is speaking about our flesh body in the above, not some humanity philosophy of man. In Romans 7 Paul covers this point about sin being in our flesh members, so that often when we would do good, we find ourselves doing just the opposite. Paul called it the "law of sin" being in our flesh members, i.e., our flesh body. Once our flesh dies, we are freed... from that state of sin that our flesh causes us.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.

How does Lord Jesus "liveth unto God" after His resurrection? Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50 said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And Peter in 1 Peter 3 showed that Christ's body was 'quickened' by The Spirit. Afterall, Christ had no flesh body before He was born as Jesus in Mary's womb, yet He always existed. It's because like Apostle John said in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit".

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
KJV

Likewise, those of Faith are to reckon (suppose, assume), to already be dead though we are yet alive in our flesh, like having already put off our flesh body, which is the "body of sin", and having already been resurrected with Lord Jesus Christ. That is how our behavior in Christ is supposed to be, according to Paul in the above Romans 6 chapter.

What then does this point to about our life today while still alive in the flesh on earth? It points to sin in our fleshy members, because most of our sins are caused by fleshy lusts and desires, and walking by our flesh instead of walking by The Spirit in Christ Jesus (Galatians 5). As long as we are still in the flesh, we will have this struggle between our spirit and our flesh, for they are two separate orders of operation.

Like Jesus said:
John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
KJV

 

[homwardbound]

The 'provision' for forgiveness was made on the Cross, actual forgiveness happens when one repents of all sin. 1 Jn 1:9. Sin is forgiven upon confession.

Forgiveness is received at repentance (a change of mind set), Belief to God, who by Son took care of sin (all the nasty nines and dirty dozen) on that cross in his one time shed blood, once for all (Hebrews 10:10) Forgiveness, reconciliation got done at that cross.
Now, Son is risen from the dead. Waiting for us to go to God personally and tell God personally you believe God in Son as risen for you, then the new life given you from God begins in you, as people in belief see this amazing grace and as I am floored by it
In Psalms 100:4, 103:12.

 

[Wansvic]

I disagree with the end part of what you wrote, and this was actually the reason I made the comments I did. The examples you give are of those who Christ never knew. Whatever their attachment to Christ and believers, it was not rooted in trusting the Lord Jesus Christ. The first group seemed to rely on external works, while the latter were unprepared for His arrival. Christ, in John 17 while praying asserts that He lost none that were given Him save the son of perdition. For someone to go astray that was given to Him would be a failure on His part. This is the whole reason He goes after the one leaving the 99. Jesus will never fail to secure all that are given to Him. He will not only seek and save them, but will present them as His bride before the Father.

Jesus said I never KNEW you, (Matt 7) and I KNOW you not. (Matt. 25) Being intimately known of God requires His having come to dwell within the body of the believer. (Acts 2:4, 38-42; 8:15-17; 10:44-45, 19:6)

Notice the 5 foolish virgins had only lamps. The lamp is a reference to the word of God, and oil speaks of the Holy Ghost. As such, the account would seem to indicate the foolish did not have the Holy Ghost residing within. Whereas the wise had both a lamp and oil in their vessels. (Matt. 25:4) The word of God is a light unto our path, and it's the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost that leads and guides into all truth recorded in the word.

 

[Magenta]

Notice the 5 foolish virgins had only lamps.

The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. Matthew 25:3

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus said I never KNEW you, (Matt 7) and I KNOW you not. (Matt. 25) Being intimately known of God requires His having come to dwell within the body of the believer. (Acts 2:4, 38-42; 8:15-17; 10:44-45, 19:6)

Notice the 5 foolish virgins had only lamps. The lamp is a reference to the word of God, and oil speaks of the Holy Ghost. As such, the account would seem to indicate the foolish did not have the Holy Ghost residing within. Whereas the wise had both a lamp and oil in their vessels. (Matt. 25:4) The word of God is a light unto our path, and it's the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost that leads and guides into all truth recorded in the word.

I wholeheartedly agree. All had merely external connections to Christ...never saved.

 

[Magenta]

I wholeheartedly agree. All had merely external connections to Christ...never saved.

Do you think they had no oil at all in their lamps?

 

[Cameron143]

Do you think they had no oil at all in their lamps?

I believe they did have oil.

Every parable is concerned to point out some aspect of truth. None are designed to teach every aspect of every truth. And it seems to be the general custom of God in having scripture written to give revelation gradually and in part.

Some truths are so encompassing that many parables are used or many illusions employed to give a fuller understanding. For example, how many parables are there concerning the kingdom of God? So every aspect of a truth is not included in the allusion or parable but each focuses on a particular aspect of the truth.

 

[Magenta]

And the caveman looks with a confused look and says “ unga bunga “ fire…ooooh

I have just discovered one person on my fave site for sourcing material (Pixabay) who has almost 400 (384) pages of images for me to look at. Each page might have as many as 60 images on it. Ugh. That is a lot for me to pile through, but I have narrowed down my search to look at just her offerings (for now, and just the ai generated images) because I have already saved a few from her and I like her style... She has a mix of formats, with photographs and also ai generated fantasy stuff with a variety of cute animals and demonic sort of alien creatures and clowns (LOL) ... so a lot of it I have zero use for. After spending a week on my last panel, and still not liking it, last night (or rather, early this morning, cuz it was after midnight) I went to Pixabay and found a couple of her images which I started working with right away. So when I should have been going to bed, I started three new panels!!! I took this woman of hers:



and added it to this background



and with a bit of erasing and blending plus colour adjustments,
and putting it in a border/frame set-up which I devised, I get this:



Oh, yes, I changed her eyes (of course!)...

Another face of hers I liked was this one:



Of course I changed her eyes, also, as I always want them lookig into the soul of the viewer...

So I used this woman's eyes, from the same person's offerings on Pixabay



And put it on this background, which I already had open in photoshop as a possibility for the other panel above



Colour corrections, positioning, blending, erasing... voila!



I did not even start with a frame/border set-up for this one as I normally do cuz I was so excited about this new
turn of events and YIKES! by then it was well after three in the morning by then and I really had to go to bed...

The first one I started after midnight was this one:



She started out looking like this:



I will spare you any more details... My cat is wanting me to feed her .

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

Colossians 1:21-23

Living Bible



21 This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies and hated him and were separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. 22 He has done this through the death on the cross of his own human body, and now as a result Christ has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are standing there before him with nothing left against you—nothing left that he could even chide you for; 23 the only condition is that you fully believe the Truth, standing in it steadfast and firm, strong in the Lord, convinced of the Good News that Jesus died for you, and never shifting from trusting him to save you. This is the wonderful news that came to each of you and is now spreading all over the world. And I, Paul, have the joy of telling it to others
Are we seeing this too, are we having this joy of telling others too
God so loved the world, Son first took away all sin in his Father's sight for us on that cross over 2,000 years ago now. Is that done, or not?
When anyone decides that it is done by God, believes God in this truth, the new begins in you, from God to you?
So, please turn to God in trust to God as your friend now, not of the Old ways, that were misinterpreted and still are today, being under Law in thought of God is a tyrant. Which God in truth has never been a tyrant
And the troubles I myself have gone through, I could view as God punishing me over sin.
Yet how can that be, since God took all sin upon himself for us all through Son on that cross? Hebrews 10:10, 1 John 2:1-12. John 19:30 Jesus said it is finished and then died once for everyone to choose to believe God or not: in Son or not as risen for you to be new or not? that is the free choice left to choose to believe God, not self and others. It is not about being good enough anymore or not as that be what the first born people do in their flesh trying to control people, the same as the Pharisees were doing back then also.
Waking up, thanking God Psalm 100:4, seeing, psalm 103:12 and Ezekiel 36:26 in trust, God's trust fund through Son given me and all others that believe also

Dear brother in Jesus, first, I thank you for your post.

Second, the Living Bible is a paraphrase, not a translation, in which the author has included his own theological understandings, which may not always be accurate.

Third, his paraphrase is accurate in this case with his words in verse 22, "and you are standing before him with nothing left against you--nothing left that he could chide you for."

Fourth, Paul definitely doesn't mean that we are completely sinless now (compare his own struggles with sin in Romans 7).

Fifth, the words are "holy" and "blameless" before the Father, our Judge, which mean "set apart" and "perfect" like the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament were supposed to be.

Sixth, in Romans 3, Paul also uses the word "justify" for his meaning here, which is a legal term meaning that our Judge has given us his verdict about ALL our sins as "not-guilty," while Jesus took our rightful "guilty" verdict on himself when he died.

Seventh, because our loving Judge has justified us as being not-guilty and right with him, we are holy and blameless in his sight; but as our Father, he knows that we still have sin in us, that is, our flesh or sinful nature, that we must always struggle against with the power of the resurrection of Jesus (again, Romans 7, with Paul's struggle).

Eighth, but the paraphraser is correct that we "stand" before our Judge free from his judgment against us because of Jesus' death.

Ninth, I hope that this explanation helps you understand the answer to your question. In the great love of our Father, Bruce_Leiter.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8:1-2; 5:57 + 58b

 

[wattie]

I recommend you study what Apostle Paul taught about our struggle between our flesh and our spirit per Romans 7. Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save our flesh. He came to save our 'spirit' with 'soul' that is inside our flesh.

Apostle Paul covers this distinction between sin/flesh death and Faith/eternal life of our spirit, per Romans 6. Below is an excerpt of that teaching, which I find many struggle with because they don't really understand what part of our being that God created is saved by Christ.

Rom 6:3-12
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Our Faith on Jesus' death and resurrection Paul compares to being like a baptism, a spiritual baptism upon our spirit that is inside our flesh. Continuing to read what Paul says here will reveal that "newness of life" is about our 'spirit' putting on immortality in the world to come.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:

That above is a pivot point where many brethren struggle with the idea of our spirit vs. our flesh. At the resurrection, just what did Apostle Paul show in 1 Corinthians 15 that is raised, our old flesh body in ground, or our spirit? Some Churches still preach old Jewish traditions about the resurrection involving a new flesh body, claiming our flesh is raised from the casket when Paul did not teach that. Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that we shall not all sleep, but that we 'all'... shall be "changed", meaning changed to the "spiritual body", which is the type body of the future resurrection per Paul. That must be understood in order to properly understand what Paul covers here next...

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The above is where many modern Bible translations insert man-made humanist-humanity doctrines. Apostle Paul is speaking about our flesh body in the above, not some humanity philosophy of man. In Romans 7 Paul covers this point about sin being in our flesh members, so that often when we would do good, we find ourselves doing just the opposite. Paul called it the "law of sin" being in our flesh members, i.e., our flesh body. Once our flesh dies, we are freed... from that state of sin that our flesh causes us.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.

How does Lord Jesus "liveth unto God" after His resurrection? Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50 said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And Peter in 1 Peter 3 showed that Christ's body was 'quickened' by The Spirit. Afterall, Christ had no flesh body before He was born as Jesus in Mary's womb, yet He always existed. It's because like Apostle John said in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit".

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
KJV

Likewise, those of Faith are to reckon (suppose, assume), to already be dead though we are yet alive in our flesh, like having already put off our flesh body, which is the "body of sin", and having already been resurrected with Lord Jesus Christ. That is how our behavior in Christ is supposed to be, according to Paul in the above Romans 6 chapter.

What then does this point to about our life today while still alive in the flesh on earth? It points to sin in our fleshy members, because most of our sins are caused by fleshy lusts and desires, and walking by our flesh instead of walking by The Spirit in Christ Jesus (Galatians 5). As long as we are still in the flesh, we will have this struggle between our spirit and our flesh, for they are two separate orders of operation.

Like Jesus said:
John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
KJV

I agree with this. If you can lose salvation though, this fleshly body is going to keep sinning after conversion.

That's why Jesus forgives sin..completely..past present and future.. because the good things we do never outweigh are fleshy, sinful selves.

Like someone boasting that they read the Bible everyday, go to church every Sunday, pray before bed everyday. They are focused on themselves. Boasting in themselves. That's the sin of pride. What the Pharisee was rebuked for in comparison to the publican.

Before salvation..we are dead in sin. After salvation we still sin. Jesus forgives sin for the believer, therefore sin does not undo a believers salvation.

Romans 6 is preceded by Romans 5..all about being fully justified by Him.

The right response to this is in Romans 6. Which is what a believer should do, led by Jesus and His grace. But they will still sin.

So sin doesn't undo salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have just discovered one person on my fave site for sourcing material (Pixabay) who has almost 400 (384) pages of images for me to look at. Each page might have as many as 60 images on it. Ugh. That is a lot for me to pile through, but I have narrowed down my search to look at just her offerings (for now, and just the ai generated images) because I have already saved a few from her and I like her style... She has a mix of formats, with photographs and also ai generated fantasy stuff with a variety of cute animals and demonic sort of alien creatures and clowns (LOL) ... so a lot of it I have zero use for. After spending a week on my last panel, and still not liking it, last night (or rather, early this morning, cuz it was after midnight) I went to Pixabay and found a couple of her images which I started working with right away. So when I should have been going to bed, I started three new panels!!! I took this woman of hers:

View attachment 266943

and added it to this background

View attachment 266944

and with a bit of erasing and blending plus colour adjustments,
and putting it in a border/frame set-up which I devised, I get this:

View attachment 266945

Oh, yes, I changed her eyes (of course!)...

Another face of hers I liked was this one:

View attachment 266946

Of course I changed her eyes, also, as I always want them lookig into the soul of the viewer...

So I used this woman's eyes, from the same person's offerings on Pixabay

View attachment 266947

And put it on this background, which I already had open in photoshop as a possibility for the other panel above

View attachment 266948

Colour corrections, positioning, blending, erasing... voila!

View attachment 266951

I did not even start with a frame/border set-up for this one as I normally do cuz I was so excited about this new
turn of events and YIKES! by then it was well after three in the morning by then and I really had to go to bed...

The first one I started after midnight was this one:

View attachment 266952

She started out looking like this:

View attachment 266953

I will spare you any more details... My cat is wanting me to feed her .

WOW!! Fire good !! Ungu

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree with this. If you can lose salvation though, this fleshly body is going to keep sinning after conversion.

That's why Jesus forgives sin..completely..past present and future.. because the good things we do never outweigh are fleshy, sinful selves.

Like someone boasting that they read the Bible everyday, go to church every Sunday, pray before bed everyday. They are focused on themselves. Boasting in themselves. That's the sin of pride. What the Pharisee was rebuked for in comparison to the publican.

Before salvation..we are dead in sin. After salvation we still sin. Jesus forgives sin for the believer, therefore sin does not undo a believers salvation.

Romans 6 is preceded by Romans 5..all about being fully justified by Him.

The right response to this is in Romans 6. Which is what a believer should do, led by Jesus and His grace. But they will still sin.

So sin doesn't undo salvation.

“Before salvation..we are dead in sin. After salvation we still ( sometimes ) sin”


Thats why we need to accept this stuff as believers

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭

That’s because he knows we aren’t going to say I believe and then be perfect all the sudden he knows we’re going to make mistakes still so he’s teaching us “ if you are merciful to others and don’t judge and condemn them , I won’t condemn you when you are judged for all your deeds and words , if you forgive you’ll be forgiven , if you dont condemn you won’t be condemned , if you are merciful you’ll receive mercy multiplied at judgement

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We want to be merciful and forgive others because we say how Jesus blood is what pays for our sins , we have to realize it pays for the sins of those who offend us also . So for us to hold grudges and condemn and judge others isn’t wise and is going to backfire

 

[Magenta]

WOW!! Fire good !! Ungu

Romans15:4

 

[Wansvic]

The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. Matthew 25:3

Matt 25:3-4
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

 

[Cameron143]

Matt 25:3-4
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

See verse 8...for our lamps have gone out.

 

[Wansvic]

The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. Matthew 25:3

The main point is they did not have oil in their vessels. Born again individuals are the temple/vessel in which the Holy Ghost has come to reside.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Romans15:4

“We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: that ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭

 

[Wansvic]

See verse 8...for our lamps have gone out.

I'm interested in your thoughts concerning that particular verse. I have to get off for now, but will check back later. Looking forward to your comments.