For the believer, when does God forgive sins?

[HeIsHere]

I’m not sure I understand what he’s saying to be honest.

In this doctrine "man" is unable to believe the Gospel with being regenerated first.

Straight out of their playbook......

Scripture reveals that all people are born “dead in sins and trespasses” (Eph. 2:1). By nature, we are unable to do anything pleasing to God. No one naturally seeks after God (Rom. 3:10–11). The natural man or woman is unable to see the kingdom of God or understand the things of God (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 2:14). This means that no one can trust in Christ apart from the initiative of God’s saving grace—namely, regeneration.
Ligionier Ministries

.....or here is another explanation

They would say that a person must be born again before he believes. They would say that a person must have God’s LIFE before he can believe on Christ. "The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith."
C. D. Cole

The Philippians jailer once asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).

If Paul had been a Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed."

I will go with the actual words and direction.

How different was the answer Paul gave: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think, what he is saying is:
One has to become perfect, before one can truly believe
It is a work mentality, of one having to do as Jesus did, yet gets forgiven over and over again, if repents over and over again, then one continues to serve, to be perfect as Son is perfect
Galatians has a lot to say about works to get in and keep in it.
Not totally sure either, conjecturing, However, I love this fact, God does not forsake anyone
I stand in trust to God to teach me new and am in process seeing. this truth, amazing grace is sufficient

“I think, what he is saying is:
One has to become perfect, before one can truly believe”

Brother cameron ??? No no he’s definately not saying that unless I’ve totally missed it lol who knows I am getting old so

“It is a work mentality, of one having to do as Jesus did, yet gets forgiven over and over again, if repents over and over again, then one continues to serve, to be perfect as Son is perfect”

not sure I kind of understand I think what you mean , like Jesus is our teacher and our example and we are his disciples ?

Sons aren’t perfect brother some make many mistakes as they grow up and have experiences in a world that’s really pretty sinful and wicked and dangerous as they are learning . Lots of bad influences happen and we all make mistakes and do things God has said is sinful or he wouldn’t approve of in our lives you know

our children make a lot of mistakes and sometimes even choose against what we would choose for them maybe they want to move far away , but we want them to stay home near us but then they go away anyways and they make a lot of terrible decisions and stray from the good advice and lessons you taught them ect

maybe their lives fall apart and they end up broke and in need even wanting to eat some pig food because they are so hungry and lost and destitute .

they have no reason to hope they did it all wrong woe is me I’m so doomed I have nothing …….but then a memory , a thought “ Dad, I should go home to Dads house , it’s quite a walk home but I think if I repent for leaving and tell him I’m sorry and then he’ll accept me as a worker and at least I can have a life with humans and not swine

so he remembers his dads house who wanted him to stay home all along . On the way he is planning what to say “ I’ll gravel I’ll beg I’ll plead , it’s my last chance if he rejects me , I don’t know what I’ll do hopefully he’ll remember me and accept me even after all this wrong I’ve done .

he knows of my shameful life I’ve lived I’m sure but if I just let him know I’m sorry if I just go home maybe he’ll have me again as a laborer he pays fair and I know the work……..

but then this happens because he repented and remembered his dad and set out on the long journey with a flicker a glimmer of hope when he was at rock bottom

“So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:20-24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

and now he is overwhelmed by the fathers love for him he was already watching and waiting longing for his son to come home . He saw him and ran to him he’s busy kissing and hugging and he’s so happy to see his sons beautiful ragged face and tattered clothes

as his son who’s repentance had brought him back home realizing his life was being ruined is trying to say he’s unworthy now and everything ….the father is just overwhelmed with joy to see him that he had come home he’s chosen home over the world he remembered his dad and came home

abut then after the celebration ….it’s time to start acting like a good son because he realized how very much his father loves him and it has won over his heart …now he will do anything his father asks or tells him to do but it’s done because of the overwhelming mercy and love that was first shown after the man decided to come home in repentance

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No. I'm saying one has to be made alive before they can respond.

“No. I'm saying one has to be made alive before they can respond.”

It’s Hearing the word that gives life to the already condemned


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I have come that they might have life ….

i am the resurrection and the life …..

whoever keeps my word shall never die …..

 

[homwardbound]

No. I'm saying one has to be made alive before they can respond.

Amen, God does that, thanks for your saying what you mean
inam not the creator, I am the creation. I have no righteousness, none. Yet in response to God, I am given righteousness to appreciate
‘and love all in the same mercy and truth of Son
thanks

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Do people believe before they hear the gospel? No. God sends preachers...God's initiative. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God...God's initiative.
Not everyone who physically hears the gospel believes. Why not, if the word of God produces hearing? Because the word of God alone does not produce faith. The gospel must be accompanied by the Spirit of God. We are birthed from above by water and the Spirit...John 3. It takes both the word of God and the Spirit of God to produce salvation. Again, this is initiated by God.

Yea…..I Don’t know brother I guess don’t ever do anything the lord and his apostles said to do. And say the spirit will do it for you later

Seems in line with the gospel of grace 2000

 

[Cameron143]

“No. I'm saying one has to be made alive before they can respond.”

It’s Hearing the word that gives life to the already condemned


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I have come that they might have life ….

i am the resurrection and the life …..

whoever keeps my word shall never die …..

Right. Like Lazarus.
Do you suppose Lazarus being dead heard His words then became alive or was made alive and heard?
Either way, the hearing is produced by Christ who produces life.
Also, only those who are dead and hear will have life. There are those who are dead who do not hear. To what do you ascribe the difference?

 

[Cameron143]

Yea…..I Don’t know brother I guess don’t ever do anything the lord and his apostles said to do. And say the spirit will do it for you later

Seems in line with the gospel of grace 2000

I never said don't do what Jesus and the disciples said. I believe we should obey every command. But by works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Obedience doesn't produce salvation, but salvation always produces obedience.

 

[HeIsHere]

“No. I'm saying one has to be made alive before they can respond.”

It’s Hearing the word that gives life to the already condemned


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I have come that they might have life ….

i am the resurrection and the life …..

whoever keeps my word shall never die …..

The Lazuras example is often a goto for proof, very common!!


Calvinism teaches that the gospel has NO POWER to save the unregenerate. Now calvinists will scream that is not true. Please note, I said calvinism maintains one thing and calvinists proclaim another. Calvinists will argue that the gospel is the means God uses to regenerate the lost person and bring them to Christ. I will use a popular calvinist illustration to prove my point.

The example of Jesus calling Lazarus from the grave is a common popular illustration that calvinists use to illustrate the phenomenon they call regeneration prior to repentance and saving faith. Calvinism teaches that God effectually calls the lost man with a dead heart and deaf ears to life so that he can THEN repent and believe and be saved. Calvinists use Jesus’ command outside Lazarus’ tomb to illustrate the power of the effectual call in regeneration; “Lazarus come forth” and he came to life. When God calls the elect to life, they like Lazarus have new life and are born again and begin to live as a child of God.
https://sbcissues.wordpress.com/201...ording-to-calvinism-and-the-story-of-lazarus/

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In this doctrine "man" is unable to believe the Gospel with being regenerated first.

Straight out of their playbook......

Scripture reveals that all people are born “dead in sins and trespasses” (Eph. 2:1). By nature, we are unable to do anything pleasing to God. No one naturally seeks after God (Rom. 3:10–11). The natural man or woman is unable to see the kingdom of God or understand the things of God (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 2:14). This means that no one can trust in Christ apart from the initiative of God’s saving grace—namely, regeneration.
Ligionier Ministries

.....or here is another explanation

They would say that a person must be born again before he believes. They would say that a person must have God’s LIFE before he can believe on Christ. "The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith."
C. D. Cole

The Philippians jailer once asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).

If Paul had been a Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed."

I will go with the actual words and direction.

How different was the answer Paul gave: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

it’s just the grace distortion they look at Webster dictionary and define the word grace then determine it means if you ever have to do anything God said you need to do then it’s not grace ….

That’s the root avoid everything God said you need to do and say that’s not grace. But all the verses in the same books and letters those are all true of they sound like you don’t need to repent and obey God then it’s grace and won’t save ……

ots the gospel of grace revised to erase the truth of things that brings repentence

untimately it says “ if you have to do anything it’s not grace “

all the while jesus and his apostles in the epistles were constantly teaching lol what to believe what to do what’s not to do with fire deadly warnings hahaha a

it’s so incredible how anyone falls for it it’s literally requiring them to reject what the savior says about salvation and claim that’s not how one is saved

it always leaves me bewildered…Ive learned there’s no breaking that wall been trying for thirty years

to me it’s simple if a doctrine requires me to reject what Jesus taught in the everlasting gospel …..it’s not of God

 

[Cameron143]

The Lazuras example is often a goto for proof, very common!!


Calvinism teaches that the gospel has NO POWER to save the unregenerate. Now calvinists will scream that is not true. Please note, I said calvinism maintains one thing and calvinists proclaim another. Calvinists will argue that the gospel is the means God uses to regenerate the lost person and bring them to Christ. I will use a popular calvinist illustration to prove my point.

The example of Jesus calling Lazarus from the grave is a common popular illustration that calvinists use to illustrate the phenomenon they call regeneration prior to repentance and saving faith. Calvinism teaches that God effectually calls the lost man with a dead heart and deaf ears to life so that he can THEN repent and believe and be saved. Calvinists use Jesus’ command outside Lazarus’ tomb to illustrate the power of the effectual call in regeneration; “Lazarus come forth” and he came to life. When God calls the elect to life, they like Lazarus have new life and are born again and begin to live as a child of God.
https://sbcissues.wordpress.com/201...ording-to-calvinism-and-the-story-of-lazarus/

You still need to explain if the gospel alone is sufficient for salvation, why it is that everyone who hears the gospel is not saved.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I never said don't do what Jesus and the disciples said. I believe we should obey every command. Obedience doesn't produce salvation, but salvation always produces obedience.

But by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

jesus didn’t teach the law brother he taught the gospel of grace and truth

“For the law was given by Moses,( no one’s saved by the law )

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” ( we’re saved by grace when we accept the truth )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I never said don't do what Jesus and the disciples said. I believe we should obey every command”

so this then ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why is that not valid ?

 

[Cameron143]

it’s just the grace distortion they look at Webster dictionary and define the word grace then determine it means if you ever have to do anything God said you need to do then it’s not grace ….

That’s the root avoid everything God said you need to do and say that’s not grace. But all the verses in the same books and letters those are all true of they sound like you don’t need to repent and obey God then it’s grace and won’t save ……

ots the gospel of grace revised to erase the truth of things that brings repentence

untimately it says “ if you have to do anything it’s not grace “

all the while jesus and his apostles in the epistles were constantly teaching lol what to believe what to do what’s not to do with fire deadly warnings hahaha a

it’s so incredible how anyone falls for it it’s literally requiring them to reject what the savior says about salvation and claim that’s not how one is saved

it always leaves me bewildered…Ive learned there’s no breaking that wall been trying for thirty years

to me it’s simple if a doctrine requires me to reject what Jesus taught in the everlasting gospel …..it’s not of God

Actually, they get the definition directly from scripture...not of yourself...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You still need to explain if the gospel alone is sufficient for salvation, why it is that everyone who hears the gospel is not saved.

It doesn’t say what they want it to it calls then to repent of thier sins and obey Jesus and some won’t accept it n order to believe

 

[HeIsHere]

it’s just the grace distortion they look at Webster dictionary and define the word grace then determine it means if you ever have to do anything God said you need to do then it’s not grace ….

That’s the root avoid everything God said you need to do and say that’s not grace. But all the verses in the same books and letters those are all true of they sound like you don’t need to repent and obey God then it’s grace and won’t save ……

ots the gospel of grace revised to erase the truth of things that brings repentence

untimately it says “ if you have to do anything it’s not grace “

all the while jesus and his apostles in the epistles were constantly teaching lol what to believe what to do what’s not to do with fire deadly warnings hahaha a

it’s so incredible how anyone falls for it it’s literally requiring them to reject what the savior says about salvation and claim that’s not how one is saved

it always leaves me bewildered…Ive learned there’s no breaking that wall been trying for thirty years

to me it’s simple if a doctrine requires me to reject what Jesus taught in the everlasting gospel …..it’s not of God

Very good points indeed!

I totally get what you are saying.

I can almost understand back in Calvin's time when people were uneducated, illiterate and lacked resources but in this day and age.

I can see no excuse for believing these doctrines except for I have been told there is a lot of money behind organization like Ligionier Ministries, Monergism, Reformed.org, Gospel Coalition, Got Questions, Desiring God etc.,

 

[HeIsHere]

You still need to explain if the gospel alone is sufficient for salvation, why it is that everyone who hears the gospel is not saved.

I have so many times! sigh

Let see how spirit moves me today...lol.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Actually, they get the definition directly from scripture...not of yourself...

I see yeah apparently they have some nice glasses for viewing scripture and defining everything they don’t want to hear

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Very good points indeed!

I totally get what you are saying.

I can almost understand back in Calvin's time when people were uneducated, illiterate and lacked resources but in this day and age.

I can see no excuse for believing these doctrines except for I have been told there is a lot of money behind organization like Ligionier Ministries, Monergism, Reformed.org, Gospel Coalition, Got Questions, Desiring God etc.,

It’s fulfillment also of prophecy we were warned in the early days of the church

“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Many will follow their immoral conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:3-5‬ ‭NIV‬‬

everyone has the freedom to choose what they believe tho brother I hope every soul gets saved that ever lived ….but I don’t think that’s gonna happen still hope so

 

[studentoftheword]

The word if should be the word when in those verses or you make salvation to be conditioned on the actions of men. That negates grace and...not of works or yourself[/QUOTE]

No----- you are wrong -----the word ----if ------in this way to salvation does not negate Grace -----you seem to have no understanding about Grace here ----Grace here is a person ---who is Jesus Christ ---Grace Provided the free gift of salvation -----our Faith in Jesus takes and receives this Gree Gift offered by Grace -------

The word---------- if ------gives people the Choice to accept or reject the free Grace Gift offered ------We have free Choice to choose ----so ------If you ------decided to do what is required then you are saved ---if you decided to reject the requirement then you are not Saved ----but the Graced gift still is there for you to choose later if you wish to --------it is by Grace (Jesus )that you even have this free gift -----you did nothing to earn it ----it is freely offered by and through what Jesus who is Grace did for all -----who will receive Him -----

Strong's Concordance
ei: forasmuch as, if, that
Original Word: εἰ
Part of Speech: Conditional Particle Or Conjunction

HELPS Word-studies
1487 ei (a conditional conjunction) – if. 1487 /ei "a condition,


Grace is not a thing ---it is a person ----Jesus full of Grace and Truth ------The Word is full of Grace and truth ----Jesus is the Word incarnate -----Grace is a Person ----not a thing


John 1:14

Easy-to-Read Version

14 The Word became a man and lived among us. We saw his divine greatness—the greatness that belongs to the only Son of the Father. The Word was full of grace and truth.

 

[Cameron143]

But by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

jesus didn’t teach the law brother he taught the gospel of grace and truth

“For the law was given by Moses,( no one’s saved by the law )

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” ( we’re saved by grace when we accept the truth )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I never said don't do what Jesus and the disciples said. I believe we should obey every command”

so this then ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why is that not valid ?

It's valid. It just doesn't mean as you suppose. I've already explained this. The verses are not speaking about salvation. As part of teaching the disciples to pray, Jesus teaches them to pray asking forgiveness of God and doing so according to the way they forgive others. So what is His point?
In forgiving others, we allow for reconciliation and fellowship with the one who has offended. In like manner, God does so for us. But when we expect forgiveness for ourselves but do not do so for others, God recognizes our insincerity. How can we say we love God and yet are not loving others. Love covers a multitude of sin and keeps no record of wrongs. It suffers long. God is not mocked. We reap what we sow. If we desire reconciliation and fellowship with God, we should also want this with our brothers and sisters.

But none of this affects our relationship with God. When my children disobey, aren't they still my children? In my discipline of them they don't get to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of our relationship, but they never lose the security of the relationship. By birth, they are my children. That fact will never change. In our spiritual birth, we become in time and space the children of God. This will always be true of us. We may not always be able to receive the fulness of the blessing that attends our relationship with the Father, but we will forever have Him as Father.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Right. Like Lazarus.
Do you suppose Lazarus being dead heard His words then became alive or was made alive and heard?
Either way, the hearing is produced by Christ who produces life.
Also, only those who are dead and hear will have life. There are those who are dead who do not hear. To what do you ascribe the difference?

Right. Like Lazarus.
Do you suppose Lazarus being dead heard His words then became alive ?

i believe it’s the dead and already condemned to death who hear him and live

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and that’s what gave him life

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭

It is the preaching of the gospel that offers life to all that’s the source is what I believe

a well either hear the gospel and believe and then “ have life “ through his spirit

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

peter preached a lengthy summary of any one of the four gospels most likely mark or Luke’s account is what they had heard prior

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s talking about this word

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; …Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as we learn from Jesus well
Learn things we need to accept and believe like forgivness we have to forgive others it’s not optional it’s a teaching of Gods kingdom and how forgivness works in it after you believe after you are born again because you initially heard and believed about Jesus the son of god dying for sin and being raised up again for you

We have to seek him by hearing and believe of we do we’ll learn what to do and what we need to stop doing as we are able he’s gentle in teaching us

Never going to be “don’t think you need to do anything because that’s not grace “