There will be no Rapture!!!

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TheDivineWatermark

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Andrias_Yochanan said:
I know, that Darby came up with it.
Yes John Darby invented it.
I've already posted this concept (somewhere early in this thread), but will place an old post (link) spelling it out a little more... the fact that A HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE Darby, Morgan Edwards (in 1744) *DISTINGUISHED* (time-wise) between the timing of "our Rapture" and the timing of His Second Coming to the earth (IOW, Darby certainly DID NOT "invent" the idea, it had already been well-established PRIOR TO when Darby did his own study in the early 1800s[!]... and this is just one puny example):

Post #2594 (in an older thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4568508






I wish people would quit "repeating" this false notion, as though it were true. ;)



[the fact that in that era ppl only saw "3.5 yrs" separating the two, does not change the fact that they DID *DISTINGUISH* between them, time-wise! (in that era, they only saw a 3.5 yr TRIB in scripture--so they still viewed this a "PRE-" TRIB [i.e. rapture PRE-"3.5 yrs TRIB"])]
 

stilllearning

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I used to be pre trib but failed to find the evidence. Keep in mind, the wrath does NOT equal the tribulation.
They clearly work together, per God and he uses them both in conjunction. Romans 2:8-11 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

The exile would be a good example. The wrath of God came down on Israel and many faced the wrath the final judgement as they died and there was no more second chances for them. While others were carried off into the captivity. So we see many examples with Israel how they faced wrath and tribulation.

The wrath component is the more final aspect as in there is no more chances. Such as the ultimate wrath of God which is eternal death. It is finished. The tribulation serves as a pressure to force one to make a choice. That being stuck between a rock and a hard place with nowhere to go. So you have to make a choice.

God had told Israel if they would not follow him they could expect some harsh conditions intended to get them to change their way he had promised tribulation or that pressure. Deuteronomy 28:22-23 "The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. "

That is what tribulation is, thlipsis in koine Greek. 2347 thlípsis – properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in"; tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

https://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm

Tribulation is as God says being stuck between brass and iron or as we say today stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The first four seals that Christ opens is plainly the wrath of God. However, as stated it will as wrath have a finality for some as it is clear that their is death, that finality. While it will serve as tribulation for others to get them in that rock and and a hard place to make a choice either for God or for eternal separation.

We know the those seals are the wrath as God all through Deuteronomy says that it is his wrath and he specifically mentions those seals as his wrath. Ezekiel 14:13 "Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:"

14:15 "If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:"
14:17 "Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:"
14:19 "Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:".
14:21 "For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?"

So when Christ opens the seals, God in times past has let us know that those particular judgements are in fact his fury, his wrath.

God is no respecter of persons and the same wrath and tribulation he used on Israel he will use on the world. As again Romans 2:8-11 says "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

So the same wrath and tribulation that God brought upon Israel he will do the same on the world. Revelation 6 the opening of the seals onward. So it is the wrath of God and is also tribulation per scripture. For one it is final for another still a choice to be made via pressure.
 

stilllearning

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@NilsForChrist

Now to build further upon my previous post we that are pretrib do not believe that his wrath in earthly form will come upon us so we will escape it by God's divine hand, the rapture.

Two examples of his wrath falling in a earthly form are the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. As Abraham said prior to Sodom be it far from God to judge the righteous with the unrighteous.

Christ said that those days before his return would be like the days before the flood and the days before Sodom. Peter breaks down the distinct protection or escape that God provides for the righteous when his wrath falls in that earthly fashion.

II Peter 2:4-6 says For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

God saved Noah, saved is phulassó in the Greek.

5442 phylássō (akin to 5441 /phýlaks, "a military guard") – properly, preserve by "having an eye on" (J. Thayer), referring to the uninterrupted vigilance shepherds show in keeping their flocks (see Lk 2:8, used with 5438 /phylakḗ, "a military guard," i.e. exercising unbroken vigilance as a military guard).
5442 /phylássō ("keep watch over, keep secure") emphasizes the needed vigilance to keep what is entrusted. Thus 5442 (phylássō) is often used in the NT in the Greek middle voice meaning, "Personally be on guard against," stressing the constant, personal interest involved with the guarding.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5442.htm

That is what God did he shut the door of the Ark then watched out over them. He saved Noah.

II Peter 2:7-9 says And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God delivered Lot. Delivered is rhuomai in the Greek. 4506 rhýomai (from eryō, "draw to oneself") – properly, draw (pull) to oneself; to rescue ("snatch up"); to draw or rescue a person to and for the deliverer.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4506.htm

So God snatched up Lot or raptured him prior to his wrath falling.

Luke 21:34-36 says And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I Thessalonians 5:1-10 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

It is the world that will not escape that wrath but we will escape as God has not appointed us to wrath and that wrath is the tribulation as both are working hand in hand.

We find that God will deliver us as he did Lot prior by snatching us away or rapturing us, he will deliver us.
 

Genez

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What difference does it make with "who invented/discovered" it?

What matters, is?
It's always been there.
And, can be seen by clear thinking people who have enough doctrine to put it together. .

But, there will always be those who can muddle up any sound doctrine.
It's not our job and responsibility to make them to see it.


Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.

Proverbs 12:1​
New International Version​
New King James Version​
New American Standard Bible​

And, many other versions!​


 

HeIsHere

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I've already posted this concept (somewhere early in this thread), but will place an old post (link) spelling it out a little more... the fact that A HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE Darby, Morgan Edwards (in 1744) *DISTINGUISHED* (time-wise) between the timing of "our Rapture" and the timing of His Second Coming to the earth (IOW, Darby certainly DID NOT "invent" the idea, it had already been well-established PRIOR TO when Darby did his own study in the early 1800s[!]... and this is just one puny example):

Post #2594 (in an older thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4568508






I wish people would quit "repeating" this false notion, as though it were true. ;)



[the fact that in that era ppl only saw "3.5 yrs" separating the two, does not change the fact that they DID *DISTINGUISH* between them, time-wise! (in that era, they only saw a 3.5 yr TRIB in scripture--so they still viewed this a "PRE-" TRIB [i.e. rapture PRE-"3.5 yrs TRIB"])]
I have his essay but I am not too interested in reading it, but that is fine, Darby took his basic idea and ran with it.
I have no dog in this discussion, I just stay with the obvious and overtly stated time stamps of Scripture.

Problems solved.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Just to clarify… Do you believe the rapture happens before the tribulation?
Here are the reasons why the concept of a post-Tribulation Rapture is ABSURD.

1. The Tribulation period coincides with the reign of the Antichrist.

2. The Antichrist demands that everyone must take the Mark of the Beast.

3. The Church (the true saints) know what that means and would all refuse to take the Mark.

4. Those who refuse to do so are all beheaded (Rev 20).

5. Nowhere does the Bible say that the entire Church is beheaded.

6. Nowhere in Revelation are the words "church" and "churches" found in Revelation 4 through 18 (which describe the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation).

7. Revelation 19 shows the entire Church (all the saints) and holy angels descending with Christ from Heaven at His Second Coming. How could they be in Heaven before the Second Coming if they had not already been raptured before the Tribulation?

So this is a plainly stupid teaching by those who do not understand spiritual things.
 

Genez

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So this is a plainly stupid teaching by those who do not understand spiritual things.
Why would God ever want to remove all believers from earth to begin the Millennium with?
 

Nehemiah6

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Why would God ever want to remove all believers from earth to begin the Millennium with?
When the Antichrist takes total control of the earth and its inhabitants that is not for the Church (believers) but for the unbelievers and the wicked. That's why. The Resurrection/ Rapture is not about divine wrath bur for the completion of salvation (which is glorification). And the saints will live and reign with Christ during the Millennium.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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When the Antichrist takes total control of the earth and its inhabitants that is not for the Church (believers) but for the unbelievers and the wicked. That's why. The Resurrection/ Rapture is not about divine wrath bur for the completion of salvation (which is glorification). And the saints will live and reign with Christ during the Millennium.
Seems that you totally missed my question.
It concerned the notion that the Rapture will take place at the end of the Trib..
 

Nehemiah6

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Seems that you totally missed my question. It concerned the notion that the Rapture will take place at the end of the Trib..
And I already posted that that is absurd. Did you miss that post? You mentioned the Millennium, which is unrelated.
 

Genez

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And I already posted that that is absurd. Did you miss that post? You mentioned the Millennium, which is unrelated.
I agreed with you. I gave a perspective to show why it is absurd, rather than simply stating it is.
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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What difference does it make with "who invented/discovered" it?

What matters, is?
It's always been there.
And, can be seen by clear thinking people who have enough doctrine to put it together. .

But, there will always be those who can muddle up any sound doctrine.
It's not our job and responsibility to make them to see it.


Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.

Proverbs 12:1​
New International Version​
New King James Version​
New American Standard Bible​

And, many other versions!​

The rapture absolutely was first spoken of by Christ Himself, not the apostles and prophets. John records Jesus as saying this:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Those who try to force that coming for us over onto the second coming will search in vain in Revelation where there is any mention whatsoever of Christ receiving anyone unto Himself when that event is Him coming in judgement, His garment splattered with the blood of His enemies. That's not a retrieval, that's a profound judgement and deliverance of Israel from total annihilation, with massive destruction all around.

We also see the two angels speaking of that very return for us:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

When He ascended, He was showering them with blessings and instructions, not thundering bolts of fire upon them, as will be the case at His second coming. When He comes for us, it will be for blessing, with is meeting Him in the air, not doing a 180 to stand behind Him as He hammers the earth and its inhabitants.

MM
 

posthuman

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After all?
Adam believed that when he ate the fruit that he would become like the Lord..
absolutely not.

that is what Satan told Woman, and she was deceived by it, but Adam was not

Adam willingly, knowingly chose death, "leaving his Father" to cling to his wife.

and God saved them both on the basis of their confession and faith, and God secured that salvation, keeping the way to the tree of life and preventing them from losing the atonement He made for them.

Adam fully understood their salvation was irrevocable, so he changed his wife's name to Eve - to which God declared BEHOLD!! Adam has become like Christ!
to which the scripture witnesses, he is a type of Him Who was to come ((Rom. 5:14))
 

Cameron143

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absolutely not.

that is what Satan told Woman, and she was deceived by it, but Adam was not

Adam willingly, knowingly chose death, "leaving his Father" to cling to his wife.

and God saved them both on the basis of their confession and faith, and God secured that salvation, keeping the way to the tree of life and preventing them from losing the atonement He made for them.

Adam fully understood their salvation was irrevocable, so he changed his wife's name to Eve - to which God declared BEHOLD!! Adam has become like Christ!
to which the scripture witnesses, he is a type of Him Who was to come ((Rom. 5:14))
It's easy to see that Adam was like God knowing good and evil, but how do you get him being like Christ? If it is as you stated, Eve also would be like Christ in this regard as well? And from the context of Romans 5, Adam is juxtaposed with Christ. Why isn't the reason he is like Christ that, like Christ, he represented mankind?
 

posthuman

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It's easy to see that Adam was like God knowing good and evil, but how do you get him being like Christ? If it is as you stated, Eve also would be like Christ in this regard as well? And from the context of Romans 5, Adam is juxtaposed with Christ. Why isn't the reason he is like Christ that, like Christ, he represented mankind?
what's juxtaposed in Romans 5 is how death spread to all men through Adam and life through Christ - but Paul doesn't say he is a type of anti-Christ, rather that he is a type of Christ.

there are a number of ways Adam is a typological image of Christ, the primary one being his headship over mankind. Adam also names every creature - and gives his bride a new name, just as Christ will give us new names ((Rev. 2:17)).
Adam lays down his life for his wife, when he sinned, he chose death, joining her. Jesus also laid down His life in order for us, His betrothed Bride, to no longer be separated from Him.
 

Cameron143

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what's juxtaposed in Romans 5 is how death spread to all men through Adam and life through Christ - but Paul doesn't say he is a type of anti-Christ, rather that he is a type of Christ.

there are a number of ways Adam is a typological image of Christ, the primary one being his headship over mankind. Adam also names every creature - and gives his bride a new name, just as Christ will give us new names ((Rev. 2:17)).
Adam lays down his life for his wife, when he sinned, he chose death, joining her. Jesus also laid down His life in order for us, His betrothed Bride, to no longer be separated from Him.
I can see the naming, but Adam didn't give his life for his bride. Sin never leads to life, Adam did not have life to impart, and life is only mentioned with Christ in Romans 5.
 

posthuman

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I can see the naming, but Adam didn't give his life for his bride. Sin never leads to life, Adam did not have life to impart, and life is only mentioned with Christ in Romans 5.
maybe a better way to say it is this: that he died for her sake
 

Cameron143

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maybe a better way to say it is this: that he died for her sake
How? Christ died for our sake, taking our sin upon Himself, to impart life and righteousness to us. Adam had no life to impart, lost his righteousness, and was incapable of saving his wife. Not only didn't he die for her, he was incapable of dying for her.
And this makes a mockery of the context of Romans 5. The only similarity there between Adam and Christ is that they both represented the human race.

If anything, he could have refused sin, achieved eternal life, and hoped to save her this way.
 

posthuman

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How? Christ died for our sake, taking our sin upon Himself, to impart life and righteousness to us. Adam had no life to impart, lost his righteousness, and was incapable of saving his wife. Not only didn't he die for her, he was incapable of dying for her.
And this makes a mockery of the context of Romans 5. The only similarity there between Adam and Christ is that they both represented the human race.

If anything, he could have refused sin, achieved eternal life, and hoped to save her this way.

not that his, somewhat suicidal death saved her, but that he didn't let her die alone.
 

Cameron143

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not that his, somewhat suicidal death saved her, but that he didn't let her die alone.
His only chance to save her was not to eat. He wasn't thinking of her, but himself.