Verse 2 says it is the Father who cuts them off and casts them away. It doesn't say people cast themselves away.
It seems despite the fact that they aren't abiding, they are still clinging.
Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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It seems despite the fact that they aren't abiding, they are still clinging.
Yes, God is the one who “Cast them off” BUT the branch IS the one who decides to “Stay” or “ABIDE” in Him. He tells them to ABIDE IN HIM IN VERSE 4. (YOU) ABIDE IN ME… and the idea is, if you do, I will abide in you. It all depends on whether or not they are going to “ABIDE “. In Him. VERSE 6 says if they don’t Abide in Him, He will cast them out and they will be burned with fire. (Hell). We all have the choice to ABIDE IN HIM KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS (verse 10) or choose not to abide in HIM AND be lost. Eternally.
That's a good question.
If one cannot earn salvation, then neither can one possess the power to nullify the sealing of Holy Spirit and the Blood of Christ.
When we read about "falling from grace" in context:
Galatians 5:1-6
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Paul was speaking to people who were yet outside of faith, and still looking for be justified by works, especially in the Law. He is not at all talking to people who were walking by faith, but rather those trapped in works-based things such as circumcision.
So, again, do you really think that you have the power to break the bonds of Holy Spirit, sealed unto salvation, and have you ever desired as a saved person to try and earn your salvation in any way?
If not, then we're in agreement. To say that there are others out there who were once people of faith and who now believe that they must earn it, I would have to say that those are some VERY confused people indeed, and would also have to ask how you even know that they were or are in such a state?
When it really comes down to it, the claims for losing eternal salvation, so far as I have seen, fall upon absolutely no experience whatsoever, rendering it all just an intellectual exercise based upon no insights whatsoever, and misrepresentations of what scripture is saying.
Thanks for your feedback.
MM
When you read what scripture actually says, it is the branch Israel that was cut off and cast aside for the time because of the lost souls among them who were not circumcised spiritually, and who were in rejection of Messiah. Those passages are Christ speaking to ISRAEL, not the Church, for the Church did not even exist at that time.
MM
“Please explain how is this false gospel of "temporary, conditional salvation", not a works based heavenly probation? “
your philospihy is the things Jesus taught in the gospel are a false gospel ?
I don’t think there is an answer for that honestly can’t believe a Christian would say it
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
Matthew 16:27 KJV
Paul the apostle
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
Paul again
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
David
“Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: For thou renderest to every man according to his work.”
Psalm 62:12
jeremiah the prophet
“I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
Jeremiah 17:10
The apocalypse of John
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
Revelation 20:13 KJV
The end of the Bible
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. THE END”
Revelation 22:12-13, 20-21
There is no biblical answer to people who imagine through thier own mind they know a better answer than what it tells people how can o answer someone believing the scriptures shown to them is a fallacy ? Wouldn’t they just get all bent out of shape lol and claim that it’s all false again ?
when we build walls of things that aren’t right , we later hear what Jesus said is true and will save us but then we reject it because we already know better than the savior about things like forgivness were so sure of our own thought that this which Jesus taught ……becomes a “ false gospel “
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
Can’t argue with someone who says the truth is a lie
Let’s look at John 10:22-31. the argument has been made on this site that the saved cannot be lost because Jesus says in verse 28 that He gives His sheep eternal life and no one is able to snatch them out of His hand. That is absolutely true. However, that does not mean that WE cannot remove OURSELVES from His hand. As long as we have “free will” we can choose to “abide” in Him or leave. There is no scripture that teaches or shows that God has taken “free will” away from us . If so, let’s see it. Proverbs 1:23 says that they did not “CHOOSE” the way of the Lord. We have always had a choice to stay or leave. God has never forced anyone to serve Him. If you are saved, you are free to leave anytime but God has warned us and told us what will happen if we do. Like John 15–He makes eternal salvation our reward AS LONG AS WE ABIDE IN HIM. It’s NOT dependent on our bearing fruit—He says we WILL bear fruit as long as we are abiding in Him— it’s dependent on our choice to STAY or “abide”. With him. Don’t be deceived into believing you can’t FALL AWAY from Christ. Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us plainly we CAN FALL AWAY. Galations 5:4 says we are FALLEN FROM GRACE. 1 Corinthians 10:12- “Let him who thinks he stands (is saved) take heed lest he FALL.”
—2 Peter 3:17- “BEWARE, Lest you also FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS. God could not make it any plainer—a “steadfast” Christian can FALL ( from grace) and Lose his salvation.
I think it very fitting that just before Peter tells us we can FALL, he says that “untaught” and “unstable” people will TWIST the scriptures to their own destruction.
—2 Peter 3:17- “BEWARE, Lest you also FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS. God could not make it any plainer—a “steadfast” Christian can FALL ( from grace) and Lose his salvation.
I think it very fitting that just before Peter tells us we can FALL, he says that “untaught” and “unstable” people will TWIST the scriptures to their own destruction.
There is no Scripture that shows we have free will. Men are slaves
to either righteousness, or sin, according to the Bible. Period.
Why are you so focused on the fruit. It can’t be any plainer. Just read what Jesus said— verse 4- you abide in me; because the branch ( that’s us) CAN NOT bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine! Neither can YOU bear fruit unless YOU abide or STAY in the vine WHO IS CHRIST. If you abide in Christ, verse 5, and He abides in you, ONLY THEN, will he abide in you, and you will be able to produce much fruit. But, the opposite is true also. If you DONT ABIDE IN CHRUST, He WONT ABIDE IN YOU, and you will produce NOTHING. Because. WITHOUT CHRIST YOU CAN DO NOTHING. So, what is it about that verse that you don’t understand??
That makes our salvation dependent on our CHOICE to “KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS (verse 9). Otherwise, Jesus says YOU WILL NOT ABIDE IN THE LOVE OF GOD!!! And He says you must ABIDE IN HIS LOVE. And to prove this He gives the example of Him and God. “JUST AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER’S COMMANDMENTS AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.
This whole passage from verses 1-10 proves salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our choosing to remain faithful to Christ, keeping His commandments, just like Jesus OBEYED His Father and KEPT HIS COMMANDMENTS. When we do THAT we 1) ABIDE IN JESUS, 2) we ABIDE IN HIS LOVE, 3) we WILL BEAR MUCH FRUIT, and 4) we WILL BE HIS DISCIPLES. (Verse 8)
I have gone verse by verse to show you what each verse says; If you disagree with these verses and what they are saying—because these are not MY WORDS but Jesus’s words—THEN PLEASE GIVE US SCRIPTURE that proves what I have quoted from John 15 is not true. But remember this!! The Bible does NOT contradict itself! Please do not “PIT” one scripture against another. They all agree and support each other. If your theology does not agree with what is written in God’s word, then your theology is wrong—not God’s word.
The reason I disagree with your position is because you make people responsible for maintaining their salvation. They couldn't get themselves saved, and no one can keep themselves saved. Do you really think your life after you were saved merits salvation? Do you think if God was not in you willing to do His good pleasure that you would? Do you believe that you can keep yourself abiding in Christ when you can't even go through a worship service without being distracted?
The fact is, most Christians don't abide nearly as much as they think. But try this exercise. Carry a pen and paper with you on Sunday. Jot down the number of times you notice your attention returning to God from something else that has drawn your attention. Better yet,instead of a sheet of paper, get a notebook. Let me know how you do.
Roman’s 6 is talking to Christian’s who according to verses 3-4 had been baptized into Christ. He says in verse 6 that they had been @slaves to sin”. But they were “NO LONGER SLAVES TO SIN.” Paul says they HAD BEEN SLAVES TO SIN. If they did not have “free will” they could not have CHANGED FROM SLAVES OF SIN TO SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, could they? According to your comment, we don’t have Free will”. But that’s ridiculous because if we don’t have “free will” to choose who we will serve, then we could NEVER CHOOSE TO BE SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS . We have to always be SERVANTS OF SIN because we were slaves to sin first before we became slaves to righteousness. How WERE WE ABLE TO CHANGE??? If we did not have “free will” to choose something else? It’s our “free will” that enables us to choose who we want to serve—sin or righteousness.
I f you try to remove “free will” from the human race then you have destroyed the whole gospel of Christ. It’s only because we have “free will” that we can choose to believe or NOT believe and we all know there were lots of people in the Bible who chose NOT to believe in Jesus as the Christ. All of those who crucified Him did not believe Hecwas the son of God. Did they have no choice?? If they didn’t have free will then it was not their fault because they couldn’t choose. The same goes with ALL of the gospel of Christ. The WHOLE BIBLE PROVES WE HAVE FREE WILL. We can choose who we will be slaves to. The passage you gave only proves that—not that we don’t have free will.
“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;
rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
Galatians 5:1, 13 NIV
We’re being taught that we are free but not to use that freedom to serve sin but to serve others in love
All who abide in Christ bear fruit only because they have been ordained to do so by Jesus Christ - it is not from the will of man,
although on the surface for those who don't look deeper, it may seem that it is.
Those who do not abide in Christ are removed because they were not of those so ordained. It is entirely of God not of man.
[Jhn 15:16 KJV]
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Amen the Bible is informing us so we know what to choose and live and warning us of what is certain death
“Roman’s 6 is talking to Christian’s who according to verses 3-4 had been baptized into Christ.”
“We can choose who we will be slaves to. “
Amen We can choose who we are going to serve willingly now
“Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6-7, 11-13 NIV
No one can force us to make that choice and decision we have to come to it freely because we believe what we’re being taught .
we’re being taught so we can choose life
You really nailed Roman’s 6 it continues through half of chapter 8
That’s about the apostles who would build his church they were chosen from among israel part of the remnant
If it pertains to the apostles, then the beginning of the chapter does as well. However, it actually pertains to, and is satisfied by, all of the saved, but is so only because of God not man.
[Mat 13:23 KJV] 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
“Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
John 6:70 KJV
(after Judas Paul also was chosen )
“not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.”
Acts 10:41
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 KJV
Still today we read thier witnesses matthews witness of the gospel , marks and Luke’s which are many witnesses including his own and johns wonderful witness also those men were foreordained as the remnant along with the early chair Ch who believed and carried out the great commission . Still today we hear thier witness in scripture
“I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.”
Isaiah 43:12 KJV
“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
Romans 1:1, 3-6
We aren’t the chosen witneses of isreal we’re this group
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
…So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-20 KJV
the book of acts then tells us the acts of the apostles many miracles and events when the church was established in the doctrine they preached
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
The apostles are special he’s talking about the apostles
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14
the parable your quoting has no relation that’s a parable of how when we accept the gospel of the kingdom and we persevere in faith we will bear fruit , if we let the things in tbe world stop us from that we will never bear fruit
I think your mistake is in not making a difference between a life of unrepented sin and a sin that you repent of. In Acts 8, Simon the Sorcerer had just believed and was baptized, (saved) when he sinned by thinking he could buy the Holy Spirit. Peter told him”your money PERISH with you. Then Peter told him to REPENT and Pray ( for forgiveness). And he did. He was repentant and did not lose his salvation. But what if he had refused to repent and pray? He WAS responsible for maintaining his salvation. Where does it say we are not responsible for maintaining our salvation. That is exactly what John 15 is saying. You maintain your salvation by ABIDING in Christ. Keeping His commandments. That does not mean we do it without Christ or apart from Christ. But Christ has already done His part. Now it’s up to us to do ours. We have to remain steadfast and faithful. Your illustration of letting our minds wander in services is not a parallel to being unrepentant and living in a life of sin. You don’t become unfaithful to Christ unless you sin and refuse to repent and pray as Peter told Simon to do.
The fact that Simon in Acts 8 was in danger of “PERISHING,” proves that a child of God can sin and Lose his salvation. That’s what “perishing” is. The definition of that word means to “suffer death or destruction.” There is no doubt that Simon was in danger of losing his salvation if he did not repent and pray for forgiveness. The scriptures are consistent in this. One scripture does not teach one thing and another scripture teach the opposite. Instead of keep coming up with other scriptures that you think teach the opposite of what I am saying— you need to show how THIS SCRIPTURE AND JOHN 15 do not teach what I am saying it does. Because if this scripture teaches what I have said, then all other scriptures will support this BECAUSE THE BIBlE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF! You will not be able to find another scripture in the Bible that teaches the “opposite” of Acts 8 and John 15 and what about 2 Peter 3:17? If Acts 8. And John 15 do NOT teach that a child of God can be lost, then tell us what it DOSE teach using the verses in that scripture to “”prove” it.
Please don’t just give me your opinion (,what you believe) with no scripture to prove it. You know what they say about opinions— they are like bellybuttons—everybody has one! 1 Thess. 5:21 - PROVE all things.
Again, you have Simon in charge of his salvation. If he repents, he stays saved.
Why do you see it as prescriptive as opposed to descriptive? In other words, why is it people have to repent to remain saved but not that they repent because they are saved or don't because they are not?