Loss of salvation???

[Pilgrimshope]

Haven't Christians already passed from death to life in Christ?

yep and now this is true of them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words we can’t keep living like this we have to follow the spirit and put these things to death

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”


That’s spoken to the church who supposedly received the holy spirit but they are living in sin and not understanding that’s a road to eternal death

 

[Mem]

No. The just have always walked by faith. That would include Adam and Eve after God shed the blood and covered them.

The original covenant, being a works covenant, had the stipulation of death. God was contractually required to render that sanction when the law was broken.

This is why Jerusalem was destroyed. Israel was under a covenant of works. They failed miserably throughout their time under the old covenant. In the fulness of time, God sent Christ to ratify the new covenant in His blood, and then executed the sanctions of the old covenant against Israel.

If you read the book of Deuteronomy, you will find God establishing the terms of the covenant and the sanctions for not upholding it. If you read the book of Revelation, you will find God reminding the people of the covenant and the sanctions, and rendering the sanctions for Israel's failure to uphold the terms. At the end, He gives His plan for the continuation of His kingdom.

Thank you for your thoughts on it. I ask to get a clearer view of different perspectives so that I can acknowledge them if I were to decide to write my own out as thoughtfully. There is no doubt that they intertwine, as much as diverge, in many aspects with the perspective of others.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Haven't Christians already passed from death to life in Christ?

Not if they reject this

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If they reject the word of the judge it’s this

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

( because they were rejecting Gods word of eternal life the gospel )

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

his word is a double edged sword either we accept Gods truth and are saved or we reject it and will be raised up again for judgement based on our deeds

Just being brought back from death to life doesn’t mean your saved

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

We can repent and believe now though

 

[homwardbound]

I don't know what the heck you just said... You have a private interpretation of things.

maybe this might help.
new life, born again to anyone who believes this is done for them too, by God’s done work of Son God gives this to each person God chooses. Not of any work of anyone else. That part is finished for us all, by son Jesus to get given the new life from God, by belief from God it is done for you too. John 19:30
then the new begins accepted, forgiven, sealed
Ephesians 1:6,7,13
Phil 1:6 trust willingly
phil 3

 

[Cameron143]

yep and now this is true of them

“Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words we can’t keep living like this we have to follow the spirit and put these things to death

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”


That’s spoken to the church who supposedly received the holy spirit but they are living in sin and not understanding that’s a road to eternal death

Christians don't always abide or walk in the Spirit, but they are always in Christ. They have passed from death to life.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Christians don't always abide or walk in the Spirit, but they are always in Christ. They have passed from death to life.

Ye and apparently that eliminates his authority to judge his people as he said he’s going to…..

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Christians don't always abide or walk in the Spirit, but they are always in Christ. They have passed from death to life.

yea if they do this

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;

whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬

But “ grace grace “ everyone’s saved regardless

 

[Cameron143]

yea if they do this

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;

whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬

But “ grace grace “ everyone’s saved regardless

We are just going in circles. I appreciate the conversation and your earnest desire for my good.
Grace and peace.

 

[Genez]

And if there is nothing that relates to death within the garden, what does God use to explain it?

He understands.... Keep that in mind.

He is manipulating.

 

[sawdust]

Just trying to expand your view of the glory that is in the knowledge of the Lord. I quite imagine Adam, before sin, enjoyed the presence of the Lord greatly. What was granted him physically, we can have spiritually as Christians.

As I wasn't talking about God's capacity as God but rather Adam's capacity as a human being all you really did was insult me and completely ignore the issue.

You're free to think of Adam as being created pre-programmed with a complete vocabulary and having the ability to conceive a thought out from nothing if you will. Your choice.

 

[sawdust]

Okay? So we get to stich any words in scripture together to make it say what we want and that's legit? I was OBVIOSLY talking about the verse he was using. What's your point? Argue?

Why don't you answer the important questions about the false gospel of temporary conditional salvation? If you believe salvation can be lost. Never in my life have I seen so many fight so hard to prove God weak and pointless. You people do NOT know the same God that saved me. At all. I could NEVER argue He is so weak that I could walk away from Him.

Strewth, talk about knee jerk reaction. Where did i say I believe salvation can be lost and I quoted the verse you were talking about.

The point is the verse actually states there is a sin that leads to death that a brother or sister can commit so your claim the poster was "adding" to scripture is false.

 

[sawdust]

He understands.... Keep that in mind.

He is manipulating.

What gets me is, if Adam supposedly can understand evil without any base line (and death is evil), then why bother planting the tree in the first place? God can just drop the info into his head, Adam doesn't need to learn anything.

ps. not rolling my eyes at you.

 

[Cameron143]

As I wasn't talking about God's capacity as God but rather Adam's capacity as a human being all you really did was insult me and completely ignore the issue.

You're free to think of Adam as being created pre-programmed with a complete vocabulary and having the ability to conceive a thought out from nothing if you will. Your choice.

My apologies for making you to feel insulted. That wasn't my aim. Again, the fact remains that all of this is speculation. The Bible doesn't say what Adam's abilities, capacities, or innate understanding was. We do know Adam was created very good. I simply imagine very good to be in excess of what you consider very good.

 

[Genez]

The commandment itself does this. But suppose you are Adam and God mentions death. Do you suppose you might ask God about it?

​

God could tell Adam....​

​

You don't need to know.​

But, if you really want to know?​

Do what I do not want you to do.​

You have to eat that fruit to find out...​

​

If you must know?​

Do what I do not want you to do. ​

Then, you will know. ​

​

In the mean while? ​

​

Go make love to your beautiful woman...​

.... and, learn not the meaning of 'trouble"... ​

​

​

Will he listen? ..... not if he is like you!​

 

[Genez]

What gets me is, if Adam supposedly can understand evil without any base line (and death is evil), then why bother planting the tree in the first place? God can just drop the info into his head, Adam doesn't need to learn anything.

ps. not rolling my eyes at you.

OK... we all know it exists.

But, can you tell me the taste of water?

Try!

....... it tastes like what?!?!

 

[Genez]

maybe this might help.
new life, born again to anyone who believes this is done for them too, by God’s done work of Son God gives this to each person God chooses. Not of any work of anyone else. That part is finished for us all, by son Jesus to get given the new life from God, by belief from God it is done for you too. John 19:30
then the new begins accepted, forgiven, sealed
Ephesians 1:6,7,13
Phil 1:6 trust willingly
phil 3

OK ...

Fine, that's a separate truth to teach about.

It did not relate directly to the issue that was at hand.

Here! https://christianchat.com/threads/loss-of-salvation.215327/post-5354881


grace and peace ............

 

[sawdust]

My apologies for making you to feel insulted. That wasn't my aim. Again, the fact remains that all of this is speculation. The Bible doesn't say what Adam's abilities, capacities, or innate understanding was. We do know Adam was created very good. I simply imagine very good to be in excess of what you consider very good.

You just did it again with your passive aggressive attitude (what I bolded).

What I have been saying has nothing to do with being good or not being good. It has to do with how we learn. It is not speculation outside of logic and knowing what it is to be a human being. You declare we can't know Adam's capacities etc while at the same time saying your understanding of Adam's goodness is better than mine. It's completely illogical and it's a put down. He wasn't created very good (innate goodness), he was declared very good (reflected goodness from the virtue of being God's creation). Only God is innately good. (Mk.10:18)

I don't expect Adam to be something other than human, even Jesus (in His humanity) had to learn wisdom as he grew (Lk.2:52). He wasn't born with the knowledge of God and it wasn't simply planted in his mind. He came to know His Father through the reading and application of the scriptures just as we do.

You seem to fail to comprehend that all knowledge for a human being must be learned and it doesn't come out from nothing. There must be a basis for the knowledge. Without some form or type of expression of the thing being learned or some basis upon which to build, knowledge remains unknown.

The very fact that God planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden tells us Adam had no innate knowledge of good and evil. The fact we must learn what is good and what is evil from scratch still holds true today. Death is not neutral, it is evil and Adam had no knowledge of it when he was created and without any death present in the garden, there is no way to teach it. It's like trying to explain to a blind person what the colour blue looks like.

 

[sawdust]

OK... we all know it exists.

But, can you tell me the taste of water?

Try!

....... it tastes like what?!?!

That depends on what water you're drinking.

 

[Genez]

That depends on what water you're drinking.

Not really. Then I would have to tell you what it tastes like...

Come on! Answer the question!

 

[sawdust]

Not really. Then I would have to tell you what it tastes like...

Come on! Answer the question!

Well, I've tasted bore water that tastes like the ocean. I've tasted tap water that tastes like licking a steel plate. I've tasted dam water that tastes like mud.

But, as you can see, if you have no idea of the ocean, metal or dirt, you still will have no idea of what water tastes like. This has been my point all along. Gaining additional knowledge needs a reference point of some sort to begin with otherwise one cannot learn. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

ps. fyi I don't make a habit of licking metal plates.