Loss of salvation???

[homwardbound]

Sin onto death is for believers!

Here!

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray ​

and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. ​

Brother and sister in the Lord, means saved.

Paul spoke of believers dying the sin onto death!

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. ​

For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, ​

not discerning the Lord’s body. ​

​

For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. " 1 Corinthians 11:28-30​

"Sleep" referred to believers who had passed on into the next life. They died the sin onto death.

For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself.​

Sin onto death....

I see this as either one believes God personally between God and them or not, I see is the sin unto death (Unbelief) first born, here on earth as first birth, not second birth. Thanks
Believe God, receive from God and be new in God in love and mercy to all, is my thankful response and no work of self anymore, only the done work for me I now see after years of wanting discernment and God gives that freely

 

[Genez]

I see this as either one believes God personally between God and them or not, I see is the sin unto death (Unbelief) first born, here on earth as first birth, not second birth. Thanks
Believe God, receive from God and be new in God in love and mercy to all, is my thankful response and no work of self anymore, only the done work for me I now see after years of wanting discernment and God gives that freely

I don't know what the heck you just said... You have a private interpretation of things.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Grace is God's divine enabling power that He grants to humble believers, those who realize that they are incapable in themselves of being what God desires them to be.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. ​

On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the ​

grace of God that is with me. “ 1 Corinthians 15:10​

Grace is God's enabling power being provided for us, to do the works He has assigned for us to do!

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,

which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:10​

Grace is not about forgiveness.

Grace is about God's provision to enable us with the needed power to do as He desires for us to do.

Grace and peace .............

Amen the atonement is what supplies forgivness Jesus suffering , shame and agonizing death shedding his own blood as the atoning sacrifice for sin it is based upon the mercy of God towards mankind

 

[Mem]

Read the passage I gave. Adam wasn't deceived. No different from people smoking. They believe it will lead to poor health and eventually death. They do it anyway.

Adam's sin was obeying the voice of his wife, rather than the voice of God. She didn't even have to say anything to convince him like Satan did in her case. She simply gave her husband the fruit and he ate. In offering him to fruit to eat, she affectively offered him disobedience and even if anyone would rather like to frame it as only a 'misobedience,' he still missed in placing any other before God. Was she an idol to him? Perhaps, seeing that her punishment was that Adam would from hence forth engage her in a battle for dominance within the relationship. But that was his sin, commandment number 1. Was unbelief somehow involved? Intuitively, I think it must've somehow had an effect on his choice to eat. The possibility has been asserted that Adam could not bear the thought of living without her and, if this is so, then he 'feared' it, yet it was Adam that was explicitly directed not to eat. There is no scripture that tells us God gave Eve any instruction on the subject.

Knowing that she is part of him, did Adam fear and so assumed that she would die also so she told her and fear so much that he added 'not to even touch it'? Considering that death did not enter until Adam ate. This makes sense to me regarding why Satan would approach her if he knew anything about what Adam had (added to and) told her. The serpent posed the exact question that drew the (added onto) answer from her, intentionally along with the question 'did God really say'? to encourage the doubt (i.e., Eve's thoughts: Hmm, if Adam said we're not to touch it and I can't make sense of why we can't touch it, and God didn't even say that, then did can I trust Adam's word that God really did say that we couldn't eat it?).

We know that (scripture explicitly tells us) Adam was the cause of sin, and death by sin, entering the world but it seems to me that this is how he did it, by adding the illogical condition (which he thought might be effective in creating an 'extra' measure of fear in her to ensure that she didn't eat, but that inadvertently was exactly what rendered Eve vulnerable to deception) that they could not even touch it.

 

[Mem]

And...Looking at the grammar of the verse wherein God tells Adam "you must not eat" supports my hunch that the verb form is second person masculine singular.

 

[Cameron143]

Adam's sin was obeying the voice of his wife, rather than the voice of God. She didn't even have to say anything to convince him like Satan did in her case. She simply gave her husband the fruit and he ate. In offering him to fruit to eat, she affectively offered him disobedience and even if anyone would rather like to frame it as only a 'misobedience,' he still missed in placing any other before God. Was she an idol to him? Perhaps, seeing that her punishment was that Adam would from hence forth engage her in a battle for dominance within the relationship. But that was his sin, commandment number 1. Was unbelief somehow involved? Intuitively, I think it must've somehow had an effect on his choice to eat. The possibility has been asserted that Adam could not bear the thought of living without her and, if this is so, then he 'feared' it, yet it was Adam that was explicitly directed not to eat. There is no scripture that tells us God gave Eve any instruction on the subject.

Knowing that she is part of him, did Adam fear and so assumed that she would die also so she told her and fear so much that he added 'not to even touch it'? Considering that death did not enter until Adam ate. This makes sense to me regarding why Satan would approach her if he knew anything about what Adam had (added to and) told her. The serpent posed the exact question that drew the (added onto) answer from her, intentionally along with the question 'did God really say'? to encourage the doubt (i.e., Eve's thoughts: Hmm, if Adam said we're not to touch it and I can't make sense of why we can't touch it, and God didn't even say that, then did can I trust Adam's word that God really did say that we couldn't eat it?).

We know that (scripture explicitly tells us) Adam was the cause of sin, and death by sin, entering the world but it seems to me that this is how he did it, by adding the illogical condition (which he thought might be effective in creating an 'extra' measure of fear in her to ensure that she didn't eat, but that inadvertently was exactly what rendered Eve vulnerable to deception) that they could not even touch it.

Any, or all of this may be correct. My point was that people sin all the time being fully aware of the consequences.
Jesus did the opposite. He obeyed being fully aware of the consequences.

 

[Genez]

Any, or all of this may be correct. My point was that people sin all the time being fully aware of the consequences.
Jesus did the opposite. He obeyed being fully aware of the consequences.

Problem is....

Adam did not yet know good and evil.
And, to make matters worse with how we assume he knew what it meant... Adam did not know what death was.

But, Satan, who was listening in, knew what death is.

Adam simply knew that he was not supposed to eat of the wrong tree. That's all he could know. In that case, disobedience was his sin.

And, Mem mentioned something that may shed light on why the woman was deceived and not Adam.

Mem, said in post #745 -

"And...Looking at the grammar of the verse wherein God tells Adam "you must not eat" supports my hunch that the verb form is second person masculine singular."​

With that in mind. It looks like (being masculine gender) maybe it appeared to them that only Adam was forbidden, not the woman. But Adam was only repeating to her what he was told directly, and he repeated the words verbatim as he received them.

But, originally, Adam was all alone when given that command. No woman as of yet. So masculine gender was appropriate.

The crux of the whole matter was?
Satan knew what death means.
He knew from seeing all the death in the prehistoric creation!

But, after Adam ate? What happened?
He did not drop dead. Satan must have assumed that God lied.
And, in turn, condemned his own way of thinking when he condemned God for lying.

Yet? God did not lie.

Adam did die.

"Spiritually." Adam suffered his spiritual death.
While looking for fig leaves, Adam was running around physically alive, but spiritually dead.

And, with that in mind?

Jesus was still alive physically when he uttered out loud... "IT IS FINISHED!"
Salvation from sins was completed!

For our sins caused Jesus spiritual death. He bore the penalty for our sins.
The agonizing death for Him to bear was being forsaken by God. Spiritual death.

Time to rethink things over....

 

[Mem]

Any, or all of this may be correct. My point was that people sin all the time being fully aware of the consequences.
Jesus did the opposite. He obeyed being fully aware of the consequences.

I agree as they have been made fully aware of the consequences, i.e. "you shall surely die." However, my argument is addressing the reasonable possibility that the cause of disobedience is some measure or another of faithlessness.

 

[Mem]

It is MHO that asking, 'why did judgment not commence immediately upon the event of Eve having eaten?' and exploring all possible good reasons could provide a more conclusive answer that adequately incorporates God's good character. Personally, I would not agree with the answer being involved with Eve's subordination to Adam as, in my view, her subordination was a consequence of her transgression rather than the (prescription?) That is, being ruled over by Adam was her prognosis rather than any sort of remedy for her condition. But, although the consequence emerged in regard to a cardinal order, that view doesn't dismiss that Adam is primary and Eve secondary in ordinal succession.

 

[Cameron143]

Problem is....

Adam did not yet know good and evil.
And, to make matters worse with how we assume he knew what it meant... Adam did not know what death was.

But, Satan, who was listening in, knew what death is.

Adam simply knew that he was not supposed to eat of the wrong tree. That's all he could know. In that case, disobedience was his sin.

And, Mem mentioned something that may shed light on why the woman was deceived and not Adam.

Mem, said in post #745 -

"And...Looking at the grammar of the verse wherein God tells Adam "you must not eat" supports my hunch that the verb form is second person masculine singular."​

With that in mind. It looks like (being masculine gender) maybe it appeared to them that only Adam was forbidden, not the woman. But Adam was only repeating to her what he was told directly, and he repeated the words verbatim as he received them.

But, originally, Adam was all alone when given that command. No woman as of yet. So masculine gender was appropriate.

The crux of the whole matter was?
Satan knew what death means.
He knew from seeing all the death in the prehistoric creation!

But, after Adam ate? What happened?
He did not drop dead. Satan must have assumed that God lied.
And, in turn, condemned his own way of thinking when he condemned God for lying.

Yet? God did not lie.

Adam did die.

"Spiritually." Adam suffered his spiritual death.
While looking for fig leaves, Adam was running around physically alive, but spiritually dead.

And, with that in mind?

Jesus was still alive physically when he uttered out loud... "IT IS FINISHED!"
Salvation from sins was completed!

For our sins caused Jesus spiritual death. He bore the penalty for our sins.
The agonizing death for Him to bear was being forsaken by God. Spiritual death.

Time to rethink things over....

Perhaps I should have said that he sinned intentionally and knew that death in some form would come.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree as they have been made fully aware of the consequences, i.e. "you shall surely die." However, my argument is addressing the reasonable possibility that the cause of disobedience is some measure or another of faithlessness.

How so?

 

[Genez]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

We have a two-fold salvation.

First one is from the Lake of Fire. That one is forever. That one Jesus sealed the contract on the Cross!

The second one?
Is a salvation of learning to become delivered and overcoming the evils we face in this world.
That salvation?
Some can lose...

Here is the salvation believers can lose, and will do so, if they persist in seeking ways to replace sound doctrine with distortions they prefer to promote and believe.

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief ​

in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—​

of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, ​

glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ​

​

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, ​

you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving ​

the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:6-9​

That salvation of the soul to be secured by the believer in time? A believer can lose!

grace and the Truth ...... May our eyes of our hearts be opened!

 

[Genez]

Perhaps I should have said that he sinned intentionally and knew that death in some form would come.

Adam had no concept of death. No death existed in the Garden before the fall.

The only wrong he could possibly correlate with would be disobedience.

 

[Cameron143]

Adam had no concept of death. No death existed in the Garden before the fall.

The only wrong he could possibly correlate with would be disobedience.

He would have had some concept of death. He simply didn't have any experience of death. We don't know how much God explained to Adam as they walked together in the cool of the day. And he would have known enough to know it wasn't good.

 

[Genez]

He would have had some concept of death..

Did he also have a concept of old age?

Satan understood death. Not Adam.

Why are you being dead to this?

 

[Cameron143]

Did he also have a concept of old age?

Satan understood death. Not Adam.

Why are you being dead to this?

Conceptualization is in the mind. Are you saying that God prohibited eating or death would result, and upon hearing about death Adam's mind went blank?

You have Adam being and intellectual midget. His mind before the fall was far superior to ours. No sin had corrupted his brain in any way. He was made able to make use of language. You believe God left him with no understanding of the penalty for sin?

 

[Genez]

Conceptualization is in the mind. Are you saying that God prohibited eating or death would result, and upon hearing about death Adam's mind went blank?

You have Adam being and intellectual midget. His mind before the fall was far superior to ours. No sin had corrupted his brain in any way. He was made able to make use of language. You believe God left him with no understanding of the penalty for sin?

Death could not be known as things were in the Garden unfallen.
All Adam could know was that the Lord did not want Adam to eat.

It was disobedience that was a sin. Not believing what the Lord told him not to do.
Adam had no fear of death, per se.

Only Satan listening in understood a concept of death.
For fallen angels had been denied physical bodies in the physical world after they fell.
The fallen angels understand physical death to an extent..
Is also why they crave to possess a body so much in the physical world.


..............

 

[sawdust]

Conceptualization is in the mind. Are you saying that God prohibited eating or death would result, and upon hearing about death Adam's mind went blank?

All conceptualization is based on known factors. Everything we have ever imagined has a basis in reality. We cannot create out from nothing, only God can do that. In order for Adam to comprehend death in any way, the Lord would have had to use some form of reality. A dead animal, a skeleton or even a dead leaf would have sufficed to teach a concept that death is a bad thing. What do you think the Lord could have used in the garden of perfection??

 

[Genez]

All conceptualization is based on known factors. Everything we have ever imagined has a basis in reality. We cannot create out from nothing, only God can do that. In order for Adam to comprehend death in any way, the Lord would have had to use some form of reality. A dead animal, a skeleton or even a dead leaf would have sufficed to teach a concept that death is a bad thing. What do you think the Lord could have used in the garden of perfection??

Dang! Now he's going to get a head ache.

 

[Cameron143]

Death could not be known as things were in the Garden unfallen.
All Adam could know was that the Lord did not want Adam to eat.

It was disobedience that was a sin. Not believing what the Lord told him not to do.
Adam had no fear of death, per se.

Only Satan listening in understood a concept of death.
For fallen angels had been denied physical bodies in the physical world after they fell.
The fallen angels understand physical death to an extent..
Is also why they crave to possess a body so much in the physical world.


..............

You have conceptualized many things before you have experienced them. Sometimes you have been right and sometimes wrong. Adam certainly was able to conceptualize death based solely on the command.