What Changed?

[Rufus]

See what you did?

You just made a mockery of yourself and the text.

What did God tell Moses to do?

Did moses do it? yes

What did that serpent represent? Yes Jesus

What did the people HAVE to do to LIVE?

yeah, they had to look at the pole in faith.

I feel bad for you really bad..

But you initially said that God gave EVERYONE a chance to look at the pole. And that's false! The people who were NOT bitten approached Moses to intercede for them after seeing their brethren (non-elect) die. And what did these people ask Moses to do? They wanted him to ask God to REMOVE the snakes from the camp! This is how we know for certain that they had not been bitten prior to the creation of the serpent pole. If they had been bitten by poisonous snakes, they would have cried out for healing, not mere removal of the snakes! What good would removing the snakes from the camp when people are literally dying from their bites?

Of course, God did not give them what they asked for. He did not remove the snakes but instead commanded Moses to make the serpent pole, which very likely took Moses some time to do. It might not even have been completed the same day, since formed out of bronze. God's remedy was not removal, rather he used the horrible affliction and trial that he had sent upon the Israelites for their disobedience as a catalyst for faith. Faith is a gift of God and that gift can come in all various forms through God's providence, with all them, however, having as their object Christ. So, here we have another great example in scripture of God bringing good out of evil, as He did with Joseph, for example. Not only that but we have another example of how God's grace is greater than man's sin! And God is greater than man's [sinful] heart!

Anything else you want to know about the Bronze Serpent Incident?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I agree that it's not rocket science. Rejecting Christ is not the same as saying Jesus operated under the power of Satan. But the clear meaning of the passage doesn't fit with your theology, so you won't accept it.

Or it does not fit with your theology so you will nto accept it.

Dude, thius line is old. people only say this when they are at a loss of words. and have no other defence

Perhaps this also is blasphemy of the Spirit...not subjecting oneself to His revealed truth. Isn't that also unbelief? Perhaps disbelief. Hmmm.

Show me in the word where anything other than unbelief will never be forgiven?

Show me in the word. where those who do not believe are cast to Hades, along with those who believed in Jesus,l but blasphemed the holy spirit.

You can;t. because its not there.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

But you initially said that God gave EVERYONE a chance to look at the pole. And that's false!

No it is not false. Because the moment the pole was risen, then everyone had the chance.

But you refuse to see this..

The people who were NOT bitten approached Moses to intercede for them after seeing their brethren (non-elect) die.

Lets look at the passage ok?

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

Nice try buddy.. But fail..

Excuse me,And what did these people ask Moses to do? They wanted him to ask God to REMOVE the snakes from the camp! This is how we know for certain that they had not been bitten prior to the creation of the serpent pole.

No. actually this is not true.. Yes they asked for moses to ask God to remove the snakes (the punishment remember THE SNAKES WHERE GODS PUNISHMENT

5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul [c]loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

Also. It says They bit the PEOPLE. and MANY died.

Please. for your own sake. learn to read!!!

If they had been bitten by poisonous snakes, they would have cried out for healing, not mere removal of the snakes! What good would removing the snakes from the camp when people are literally dying from their bites?

Because they thought it would save them, they did not know any better, Like most humans we do not know what is best for us. so we ask for things we think will help. But we have a God who does know what we need, and God sends a savior.

I know it is hard for you to understand but you need to look at the picture

1. Israel rebelled against God and Moses
2. God punished them by sending fiery serpents in which were causing them to die
3. They asked for God to remove the snakes (thinking that would help them)
4. God sent the thing that could really help them, and save them..

Of course, God did not give them what they asked for. He did not remove the snakes but instead commanded Moses to make the serpent pole, which very likely took Moses some time to do. It might not even have been completed the same day, since formed out of bronze. God's remedy was not removal, rather he used the horrible affliction and trial that he had sent upon the Israelites for their disobedience as a catalyst for faith. Faith is a gift of God and that gift can come in all various forms through God's providence, with all them, however, having as their object Christ. So, here we have another great example in scripture of God bringing good out of evil, as He did with Joseph, for example. Not only that but we have another example of how God's grace is greater than man's sin! And God is greater than man's [sinful] heart!

But you missed the whole point Jesus made.

Those who HAD FAITH and looked lived.

Those who did not would go on to die

Just like Jesus was risen on a Pole (cross)

those who have faith will live

those who do not will die

Faith is the cause of new birth..

You said Jesus never gave a cause. He not only gave it, He used an OT example to prove what he meant..

Anything else you want to know about the Bronze Serpent Incident?

You still do not get it

Make it fit with John 3.. Jesus did not wast his breath, he mentioned it for a reason.. You have failed to show that reason.

 

[homwardbound]

Or it does not fit with your theology so you will nto accept it.

Dude, thius line is old. people only say this when they are at a loss of words. and have no other defence


Show me in the word where anything other than unbelief will never be forgiven?

Show me in the word. where those who do not believe are cast to Hades, along with those who believed in Jesus,l but blasphemed the holy spirit.

You can;t. because its not there.

One either believes God personally between God and them or not. Matters not what else anyone else does or not. God did it, I accept it, thank God for it, and that settles it for me.
That is all that got left after the death of Son took away all sin but unbelief in the risen Son, where one is given a gift of new life abiding in them that will never leave even as we, I at least have got messed up in my theology also. I see to remain in humility, I need God
God simply loves us all, otherwise, Jesus would not have willingly gone through the death in all that pain first. Who would? Christ did it, the one and only one our Lord unto his lord for us. As he said it
Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do, as he was going through all that pain, he could have stopped it anytime, yet chose his Father's will over his own, Hoping we all do the same
nevertheless Father not my will but your will be done, even if I go through pain too, thank you

 

[Cameron143]

Or it does not fit with your theology so you will nto accept it.

Dude, thius line is old. people only say this when they are at a loss of words. and have no other defence


Show me in the word where anything other than unbelief will never be forgiven?

Show me in the word. where those who do not believe are cast to Hades, along with those who believed in Jesus,l but blasphemed the holy spirit.

You can;t. because its not there.

Unbelief is forgiven. Everyone who believes was at one time unbelieving. Unbelief is merely one of a whole host of sins both you and I and every other believer has been forgiven of. So unbelief cannot be the unpardonable sin.
Reread the context of the verses in question. The unpardonable sin is a very specific sin.

 

[Rufus]

No it is not false. Because the moment the pole was risen, then everyone had the chance.

But you refuse to see this..

You refuse to see (understand) that only reason why the people approached Moses is because they saw all the dead bodies around them! They were frightened and scared and rightfully so. How could the dead have had any chance to look at the pole? Did they raise themselves from the dead!

And since these people were bitten by poisonous snakes, they would have died a pretty quick and painful death. They would not have lasted very long.

And you overlook the other fact that the people who approached had not been bitten, otherwise they would not have asked for mere removal of the snakes but for healing instead. God preserved his elect until the pole was finished, then those who were bitten afterward could look at it.

You just don't know how to exegete scripture. Very sad.

 

[homwardbound]

Unbelief is forgiven. Everyone who believes was at one time unbelieving. Unbelief is merely one of a whole host of sins both you and I and every other believer has been forgiven of. So unbelief cannot be the unpardonable sin.
Reread the context of the verses in question. The unpardonable sin is a very specific sin.

All were reconciled (Forgiven at Son's one time willing death, that is done
It is the risen Life of Son, Jesus that saves us, at least has me, as God has revealed this to me personally and does to each of his children he says is righteous and he said that to Abraham by belief. God made him righteous
Man continues in man's quest to be good enough and no Man can but Son, the only one that did it and went to death for us all willingly first. to take take sin out of the way in Father's sight, so we can enter his courts with thanksgiving and praise all sin taken away by Son as far as the east is from the west. having. a relationship that teaches us new in this love and mercy of Son given us first. Otherwise no way for anyone. If there is, then Christ's sacrifices sin vein 1 Cor 15
He is risen where new life is given to see new and be new in humility to this not being able to be perfect of self ever, as man continues to try to, not letting go of Ego

 

[Cameron143]

All were reconciled (Forgiven at Son's one time willing death, that is done
It is the risen Life of Son, Jesus that saves us, at least has me, as God has revealed this to me personally and does to each of his children he says is righteous and he said that to Abraham by belief. God made him righteous
Man continues in man's quest to be good enough and no Man can but Son, the only one that did it and went to death for us all willingly first. to take take sin out of the way in Father's sight, so we can enter his courts with thanksgiving and praise all sin taken away by Son as far as the east is from the west. having. a relationship that teaches us new in this love and mercy of Son given us first. Otherwise no way for anyone. If there is, then Christ's sacrifices sin vein 1 Cor 15
He is risen where new life is given to see new and be new in humility to this not being able to be perfect of self ever, as man continues to try to, not letting go of Ego

Ok. None of this addresses my post. At one time were you an unbeliever? Were you guilty of unbelief? Did God forgive you for this sin? If so, unbelief cannot be the unpardonable sin.

 

[PaulThomson]

So God is just like us mere mortals? You believe he's a mixture of good and evil? He has human passions, too?

I have long maintained that people of the NR Faith commit two very serious errors: They have a very low and dangerously unbalanced view of God and an inordinately and unjustifiably high view of man. Thanks for explicitly affirming my observations of many years.

You have been deceived by a fallacious moralistic argument that claims that whatever appears more moral must be more true. Someone has convinced you that God gets more glory in your system, therefore your system must be truer than other systems. Someone has convinced you that whatever attributes to God the greatest power attributes to God the greater glory, and that a being with absolute deterministic power over every single thing is the most powerful being imaginable, therefore God to be greatest possible, and therefore the most glorious possible, must determine all things.
Buf none of what you have been deceived into believing is epistemically true, nor taught in scripture. Power is not even God's primary concern. God's primary characteristic is love. Power is not even in His top three favorite attributes. They are faith, hope and love. And the greatest of those is love.

You are judging the truthfulness of things through the wrong lens: power. It's distorting your vision. You need to delineate what God's power does according to His desire for love to be supreme. You must stop delineating what God's love does according to a desire for power to be supreme.

The cross shows God is willing to sacrifice His own power to elevate and actualise His love.

 

[HeIsHere]

Power is not even God's primary concern. God's primary characteristic is love. Power is not even in His top three favorite attributes. They are faith, hope and love. And the greatest of those is love.

Yes I was just reading about this, the focal point for John Calvin was the sovereignty of God and he derived his schema from there.

The three nouns employed for God in the Gospels are Love, Light and Life.

 

[Rufus]

You have been deceived by a fallacious moralistic argument that claims that whatever appears more moral must be more true. Someone has convinced you that God gets more glory in your system, therefore your system must be truer than other systems. Someone has convinced you that whatever attributes to God the greatest power attributes to God the greater glory, and that a being with absolute deterministic power over every single thing is the most powerful being imaginable, therefore God to be greatest possible, and therefore the most glorious possible, must determine all things.
Buf none of what you have been deceived into believing is epistemically true, nor taught in scripture. Power is not even God's primary concern. God's primary characteristic is love. Power is not even in His top three favorite attributes. They are faith, hope and love. And the greatest of those is love.

You are judging the truthfulness of things through the wrong lens: power. It's distorting your vision. You need to delineate what God's power does according to His desire for love to be supreme. You must stop delineating what God's love does according to a desire for power to be supreme.

The cross shows God is willing to sacrifice His own power to elevate and actualise His love.

Meanwhile, while you make God out be just like the clay pots he created, you should read Isa 55:8-9 some day. God's ways and thoughts are NOT like man's, as you have made God out to be by comparing him to Jacob.

Also, God is immutable. Man is mutable.

It's evident to me that you despise God's glory. You would certainly not feel at home in heaven. God does all things for his own glory for there is no one greater than he is.

And God did not sacrifice his "power" at the Cross. Jesus temporarily, as God's servant, set aside his divine prerogatives in order to accomplish his Father's purpose for sending him. Now, Jesus Christ possesses ALL POWER!

 

[Rufus]

Yes I was just reading about this, the focal point for John Calvin was the sovereignty of God and he derived his schema from there.

The three nouns employed for God in the Gospels are Love, Light and Life.

On the other hand the phrase "God Almighty" or "Almighty God" is used 41 times in the bible. So there is there is that!

You Non-reformed have such a shallow, superficial, unbalanced view of God. You should take Eccl 7:18 to heart that basically says that those who fear God will avoid ALL EXTREMES!

 

[Rufus]

All were reconciled (Forgiven at Son's one time willing death, that is done
It is the risen Life of Son, Jesus that saves us, at least has me, as God has revealed this to me personally and does to each of his children he says is righteous and he said that to Abraham by belief. God made him righteous
Man continues in man's quest to be good enough and no Man can but Son, the only one that did it and went to death for us all willingly first. to take take sin out of the way in Father's sight, so we can enter his courts with thanksgiving and praise all sin taken away by Son as far as the east is from the west. having. a relationship that teaches us new in this love and mercy of Son given us first. Otherwise no way for anyone. If there is, then Christ's sacrifices sin vein 1 Cor 15
He is risen where new life is given to see new and be new in humility to this not being able to be perfect of self ever, as man continues to try to, not letting go of Ego

Since all were actually, literally reconciled than each and every person is saved. Either that or you must show me a text that says each and every person on the planet has an opportunity to be reconciled, or that reconciliation was offered to each and every person on the planet, or that God potentially reconciled each and every person. If you can't do this, then the best you can say "all were THEORETICALLY reconciled" according to non-reformed theology.

 

[Rufus]

YThe cross shows God is willing to sacrifice His own power to elevate and actualise His love.

And I suppose Christ's resurrection, too, shows how "God is willing to sacrifice his own power"? As important as the work on the Cross is, the irrefutable fact of the matter is that unless God had raised Christ NONE of us would be saved; for our faith is futile and we're still dead in our sins (1Cor 15:17). And unless you can raise the dead, Mr. PT, you should tone down your arrogance towards God's great, incomparable power because if Christ not be raised, then you'll spend all eternity in hell!

Moreover, Paul also taught that our justification comes through the resurrection of Christ (Rom 4:25).

In fact, none of us would even be able persevere in the Faith if it weren't for the kind of resurrection power that God exerts to the benefit of all his saints (Eph 1:18-20).

And did God "sacrifice his own power" when he came down to rescue Abraham's descendants out of Egypt?

 

[Rufus]

I have a very simple question for all you non-Reformed folks out there and how you answer will tell just how far off the sanity reservation you have wondered. First the passage:

John 12:19
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
NIV

Now the question: Are we to to understand that the "whole world" in this text means each and every person on earth? Yes or No.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I have a very simple question for all you non-Reformed folks out there and how you answer will tell just how far off the sanity reservation you have wondered. First the passage:

John 12:19
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
NIV

Now the question: Are we to to understand that the "whole world" in this text means each and every person on earth? Yes or No.

No...They did not go after Him and follow , just like many will not Amen...

 

[homwardbound]

Ok. None of this addresses my post. At one time were you an unbeliever? Were you guilty of unbelief? Did God forgive you for this sin? If so, unbelief cannot be the unpardonable sin.

okay. I am safe in Father's sight, thanks to Jesus Christ as risen and given, Amen to Father and Son as won not for me only for all that will choose to believe God in this truth for them too. Which is between God and each person
Have a blessed day

 

[Rosemaryx]

Acts 18:10
For I am with you and no one will lay a hand on you, because I have many people in this city.”
Jesus telling Paul to go into the city for He has MANY people there , so not everyone there belonged to the Lord...

 

[homwardbound]

Since all were actually, literally reconciled than each and every person is saved. Either that or you must show me a text that says each and every person on the planet has an opportunity to be reconciled, or that reconciliation was offered to each and every person on the planet, or that God potentially reconciled each and every person. If you can't do this, then the best you can say "all were THEORETICALLY reconciled" according to non-reformed theology.

2 Cor 5:17-20 reconciled all are forgiven. Not all are saved. That is done in the willing death of Son.
Only thing left is to believe God personally, between God and self or not.
that is what is left for each and every person to choose and be willing g for God to teach each one new. As each person grows up differently from one another. God is my Savior through Son as risen for me first
Have a blessed day, hope you believe, if not, that be on you not anyone else
As God knows (Romans 8:15-16)

 

[Rufus]

In my 603 I cited numerous passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or loathes sin and sinners alike to wit:
Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 106:40; 119:113; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; Jer 16:5; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Dan 12:2; Nah 1:14; Mal 1:2-3; Rom 9:13, etc.

In this post I will quote a few companion verses that harmonize with the above and teach that God's love is conditional, sacrificial, moral and eternal in nature. And this biblical fact would also flat-out contradict NR interpretation of Jn 3:16 because if God loves each and every person in the world regardless of spiritual-moral status, then that love must be unconditional in nature, for the ground of such love must be found in the giver's own nature, which is what the vast majority of non-Reformed believe.

Since there are a great number of passages in scripture that qualify God's love, e.g. Ex 20:5-6; Deut 5:9-10; 7:9-11; 2Sam 7:15; 2Chron 6:14; Ps 103:11, 17-18; Prov 8:17; Jer 16:5; Hos 2:4; Neh 1:5; Dan 9:4-5; Rom 8:28, etc., I will quote only three from mouth of Jesus Christ himself.

John 10:17
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again.
NIV

Unconditional love can never find its ground, basis or reason in its object; for by definition the basis for such love must found in the giver himself. But here in this passage Jesus plainly and unequivocally states that the basis for his Father's love for the Son (the object) is found in his own faithful obedience. Next:

John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
NIV

Again, a crystal clear statement of the nature of the Father and Son's conditional love toward his disciples. The Father and Son both love their chosen, covenant people; for they are the only ones who can love God. The world cannot love God, which is why it also cannot obey Him. All the world can naturally do is hate God and his Christ (Jn 7:7). Now, we can understand fully why Christ did not pray for the world in John 17. He did not pray for those who hate him -- for those who love the world -- for those who are OF the world -- because Christ and Father both hate those who are OF the world. Lastly:

John 15:10
10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
NIV

Once again...Jesus is telling his disciples that to remain in His love requires their obedience -- the same kind of obedience that always kept Jesus in his Father's love.

Volumes could be written about the heresies in NR theology. Paul was right when he said "a little bit of leaven, leavens the whole lump (Gal 5:9)"! NR theology is false on numerous and significant points. It's as false as Non-Reformed interpretation of Jn 3:16 that teaches the heresy that God loves each and every person in the world unconditionally -- a teaching that wickedly maligns God's thrice holy character. Since God loved his only begotten Son on the condition of his obedience, then what would possess any vile, wicked, unrighteous mortal to believe God would lower his high, exalted, impeccable, pure, unblemished, flawless, incomparable moral standard to accommodate evil-doers whose very hearts are the corrupt, polluted fountainheads of evil? This heresy is analogous to saying that God loves evil! I would not want to be in the shoes of anyone on Judgment Day who believes this heresy.

May God help all you non-Reformed to come to your senses before it's too late!