Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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false dichotomy?
how many choices do we have for there is free-will / there is not free-will?
how many choices do we have for God capriciously destroys His creation / He does not capriciously destroy His creation?
i'm only counting two (hence dichotomy) for each, but maybe i've missed something..
how many choices do we have for there is free-will / there is not free-will?
how many choices do we have for God capriciously destroys His creation / He does not capriciously destroy His creation?
i'm only counting two (hence dichotomy) for each, but maybe i've missed something..
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We can lose salvation? So God plays games? Or is He just dumb and/or pointless? God saves people then un-saves them? So when we are born again this is just some kind of cosmic probation? A works based salvation that moves the works to the back end? Nope. This is a false gospel and a lie from hell. You cannot be born again in truth and then lose it. That's just not true, it's as false as saying I'm saved and now can sin as much as I want to without fearing judgement. Anyone saying we can lose salvation is just as wrong as the false view of OSAS they condemn others for, both are garbage lies.
The idea that we can be born again and then turn our back on Jesus after being brought into the truth and KNOWING the true power of God, has to be thought up by someone who has never experienced the true power of God. Even worse would be a God that just toys with us knowing we are going to reject Him later. This is such a ridiculous way to see God and I do not believe a God like that would be worthy of worship. A confused and ignorant God that doesn't have the power to keep His flock.
I personally believe this idea of "losing" the free gift that we can't earn is just irrational and can only be pushed by those who either do not really know the power of God because they have not been born again yet, even if they think they have, or are fairly new and are still walking towards the truth but are receiving some bad teachings by people they trust a lot. You cannot obtain salvation for yourself, nor can it be taken from you. When we are born again it's our spirit being brought to life and reconnected to His. It can no more "un" happen as we can be "unborn". So no matter how much you want to give yourself credit for staying saved, or think that your actions are keeping you saved, they are not. You get NO credit and God gets it ALL. Being saved it NOT probation. Period.
The idea that we can be born again and then turn our back on Jesus after being brought into the truth and KNOWING the true power of God, has to be thought up by someone who has never experienced the true power of God. Even worse would be a God that just toys with us knowing we are going to reject Him later. This is such a ridiculous way to see God and I do not believe a God like that would be worthy of worship. A confused and ignorant God that doesn't have the power to keep His flock.
I personally believe this idea of "losing" the free gift that we can't earn is just irrational and can only be pushed by those who either do not really know the power of God because they have not been born again yet, even if they think they have, or are fairly new and are still walking towards the truth but are receiving some bad teachings by people they trust a lot. You cannot obtain salvation for yourself, nor can it be taken from you. When we are born again it's our spirit being brought to life and reconnected to His. It can no more "un" happen as we can be "unborn". So no matter how much you want to give yourself credit for staying saved, or think that your actions are keeping you saved, they are not. You get NO credit and God gets it ALL. Being saved it NOT probation. Period.
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Sinning is serving satans Will if we keep doing that as believers we’re going to die
“Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:13-18 KJV
this isn’t being said to non believers it’s being taught to the church like this was taught to the church
“
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
Philippians 2:12-14 KJV
I’m sure some of them said “ im already saved it doesn’t matter what I do I can never “ lose “ salvation never lose “my inheritance “ regardless of my actions
“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 KJV
also repetitively taught to the church
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
These epistles sent to the churches are true they are fornthe church to learn and believe and follow after. It’s hard for anyone to ever learn anything from the Bible when others are shouting that “it’s not true doesn’t apply forget that and listen to me “
In the end it’s hard for Christian’s to accept it but
This is true
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
But when we’ve been told it’s not true even when we read it ourselves it remains not true in our mind not having room for it
“Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
Hebrews 4:13 KJV
We all must do this as Paul taught in his epistles regularly to the believing church
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
It’s going to be a surprise to some when they have to approach his throne d be held accountable for every deed and word if only they would have heard and believed his judgements that day of judgement when they are judged
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
In the end we should hear and believe the judges words because they aren’t going to change if we believe the judge were going to be fine
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13
It’s not about Moses words it’s about Jesus words we have to follow the lord
“Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
Romans 6:13-18 KJV
this isn’t being said to non believers it’s being taught to the church like this was taught to the church
“
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
Philippians 2:12-14 KJV
I’m sure some of them said “ im already saved it doesn’t matter what I do I can never “ lose “ salvation never lose “my inheritance “ regardless of my actions
“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 KJV
also repetitively taught to the church
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
These epistles sent to the churches are true they are fornthe church to learn and believe and follow after. It’s hard for anyone to ever learn anything from the Bible when others are shouting that “it’s not true doesn’t apply forget that and listen to me “
In the end it’s hard for Christian’s to accept it but
This is true
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
Romans 2:5-11 KJV
But when we’ve been told it’s not true even when we read it ourselves it remains not true in our mind not having room for it
“Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
Hebrews 4:13 KJV
We all must do this as Paul taught in his epistles regularly to the believing church
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
It’s going to be a surprise to some when they have to approach his throne d be held accountable for every deed and word if only they would have heard and believed his judgements that day of judgement when they are judged
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
In the end we should hear and believe the judges words because they aren’t going to change if we believe the judge were going to be fine
“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:12-13
It’s not about Moses words it’s about Jesus words we have to follow the lord
I fail to see how these scriptures teach once you are saved, you can’t be lost. I assume you know the rest of the story?? God was very patient with these people—up to a point! But if you know the WHOLE story of these same people you are saying can’t be lost—then you know that God DID KILL THEM. When they showed themselves unworthy of God’s salvation, He killed them with snake bite (punishment for sin), he burned them up ( because they sinned), he caused an earthquake to swallow them up ( because of sin), he caused plagues to kill them ( because of sin), and ALL of them died and NEVER GOT TO GO INTO THE PROMISE LAND (except for two) because they sinned and would not repent. Only two got to enter the promise land because they were FAITHFUL TO GOD! That only proves that the opposite is true— you can be saved (God’s people) but be lost if you are unfaithful to God. or sin and don’t repent. God shows us that over and over in the Old Testament. Those people not only lost their life— they didn’t get to enter the promise land. Which is a lesson for us. 1 Cor. 10:11- these were examples written for our learning so that we might not sin as they did.
And your example from Joshua does not prove that you can’t lose your salvation because when during Joshua’s lifetime God’s people were still faithful to Him—they made mistakes, but they were still faithful in worship to Him. But, years later in 2 Chronicles, we find the Jews—God’s own chosen people—had become wicked and unfaithful to Him and He—-didn’t “deliver them into the hand of the Amorites”. As Joshua said, but He delivered them into the hand of the Babylonians; who killed them in a bloody destruction of Jerusalem, even destroying God’s temple and taking them into captivity for 70 years. Will God punish His saved people?? You better believe it!
What you tried to prove by these scriptures just proves the opposite —even God’s chosen people could be lost! And we can, too.
1CORINTHIANS 10:12 “LET HIM THAT THINKS HE STANDS, TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL!”
And your example from Joshua does not prove that you can’t lose your salvation because when during Joshua’s lifetime God’s people were still faithful to Him—they made mistakes, but they were still faithful in worship to Him. But, years later in 2 Chronicles, we find the Jews—God’s own chosen people—had become wicked and unfaithful to Him and He—-didn’t “deliver them into the hand of the Amorites”. As Joshua said, but He delivered them into the hand of the Babylonians; who killed them in a bloody destruction of Jerusalem, even destroying God’s temple and taking them into captivity for 70 years. Will God punish His saved people?? You better believe it!
What you tried to prove by these scriptures just proves the opposite —even God’s chosen people could be lost! And we can, too.
1CORINTHIANS 10:12 “LET HIM THAT THINKS HE STANDS, TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL!”
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So there are some here who still maintain that one can lose their salvation. Curious indeed.
Can any of those who believe that claim explain how one becomes UNborn again? Where does scripture speak directly to that phenomenon?
Also, how does the seal of Holy Spirit become broken? I would need to see that also, for that speaks of a weakness in the holding Power of Holy Spirit, who is, by the way DEITY.
In addition to all that, WHO among you has ever lost his salvation after having been saved by faith? It MUST be a personal experience, because pointing at someone else whose heart you cannot see, none of us is qualified to demand that another lost his salvation when no man walking this earth is qualified to make such a declaration without assuming himself to be on the level of Deity and thus able to see into the hearts of other men.
I have grave doubts that anyone here is of the caliber of Deity, for not even Satan himself can see into the hearts of men apart from what comes out of men.
MM
Can any of those who believe that claim explain how one becomes UNborn again? Where does scripture speak directly to that phenomenon?
Also, how does the seal of Holy Spirit become broken? I would need to see that also, for that speaks of a weakness in the holding Power of Holy Spirit, who is, by the way DEITY.
In addition to all that, WHO among you has ever lost his salvation after having been saved by faith? It MUST be a personal experience, because pointing at someone else whose heart you cannot see, none of us is qualified to demand that another lost his salvation when no man walking this earth is qualified to make such a declaration without assuming himself to be on the level of Deity and thus able to see into the hearts of other men.
I have grave doubts that anyone here is of the caliber of Deity, for not even Satan himself can see into the hearts of men apart from what comes out of men.
MM
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That scripture does NOT teach that the “wood, hay, and stubble” will be saved. The fire is called a fire of testing because it will show which one will be saved and which ones will be lost. It says each one’s work will be “REVEALED” by the fire whether it will “endure” or be burned up. Verses 13-14. If one is “saved”, the opposite of that is that the other is “lost.” It is important to understand who the pronouns are in verse 15. “ if anyone’s ( Paul or Apollos) work is burned (up), he (Paul or Apollos) will suffer loss ( their work), but he himself ( Paul or Apollos) will be saved.” There is nothing about their “WORK” being saved.
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2 Timothy 2:11 starts off by saying “This is a FAITHFUL SAYING.” And then he quotes the “saying.” Verse 12–IF we ENDURE we shall reign with him ( in heaven). That makes salvation CONDITIONAL! The word “IF” at the beginning of that statement says it all. If salvation is conditional there is no way that “once saved, always saved” can be true. And salvation is based on whether or not we ENDURE.” That means whether or not we remain faithful to God. This is exactly what Jesus says in Revelation 3:10. “ Be faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life.” What happens if you are NOT faithful until you die? Well, obviously, you don’t get a crown. Which means you aren’t saved. In 2 Tim. 2 what happens if you don’t “ENDURE.”? You won’t get to “reign with Him” in heaven. If those verses are true— then the opposite of those verses is true also.
The last sentence in that “SAYING” is that just because we are unfaithful does not mean that God us unfaithful. He is faithful—just like the SAYING says. That means He will do exactly as He has said in this “SAYING”! If you don't ENDURE, God will not save you. It is a FAITHFUL saying.
The last sentence in that “SAYING” is that just because we are unfaithful does not mean that God us unfaithful. He is faithful—just like the SAYING says. That means He will do exactly as He has said in this “SAYING”! If you don't ENDURE, God will not save you. It is a FAITHFUL saying.
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