Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[GaryA]

the scripture is very, very clear that rain - water from above - comes from clouds.

Where in the Bible does it say that clouds are the only place/thing that rain comes from?

 

[GaryA]

No one will doubt or challenge the idea that rain comes from clouds. Yet, that simple idea is not "proof" against other possibilities for where rain may come from. Your course of suggestion is lame - you may as well stop it, rethink, and start again in a different more worthwhile frame of thinking.

Go read post #440 over-and-over until you get it...

 

[posthuman]

Where in the Bible does it say that clouds are the only place/thing that rain comes from?

Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.
(Psalm 147:8)

identically, He covers the firmament with clouds.
which is, the clouds are above the firmament.
the clouds, being made of water, which are separated from the seas by an empty space, i.e. "firmament"
the water above.

not to be confused with "the firmament of the heavens" -- another firmament, or empty space, also called "the heavens" - in which the stars, sun, moon and planets are set.

 

[posthuman]

No one will doubt or challenge the idea that rain comes from clouds. Yet, that simple idea is not "proof" against other possibilities for where rain may come from.

clouds, above, made of water, are separated by a space-between from the seas, made of water, which are below.

stars and planets and the sun and moon are in another space, above the waters which are the cover of the terrestrial firmament. see Genes 1 & Psalm 147.

 

[GaryA]

There is only one firmament - and, everything this side of the "3rd heaven" is in it.

 

[GaryA]

Why is the sky blue?

Because, there is water up there...

 

[Romans34]

so you believe the stars are below the clouds?

that's crazy.

It is crazy, even to mention it. NO ONE believes the stars are below the clouds. NO ONE. So why do you keep saying it? We are talking about conditions that preceded the flood. Clouds may not have existed yet. You have to think of the possibility that things my have been different before the flood than they have been ever since the flood. Does this prove anything in itself? No. But one cannot say with certainty that they weren't different because one cannot prove this either.

 

[Romans34]

The waters saw You, O God;​

The waters saw You, they were afraid;​

The depths also trembled.​

The clouds poured out water;​

The skies sent out a sound;​

Your arrows also flashed about.​

(Psalm 77:16-17)​

​

sorry, but the Bible is quite clear that rain comes from clouds.

But where did it come from BEFORE there were clouds? One can quote Job, the Psalms, anything from Genesis 12 to Revelation 21 all day and it's all POST-FLOOD. Unless the Scripture specifically references PRE-FLOOD, it's NOT necessarily Pre-Flood.

 

[Romans34]

Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.
(Psalm 147:8)

identically, He covers the firmament with clouds.
which is, the clouds are above the firmament.
the clouds, being made of water, which are separated from the seas by an empty space, i.e. "firmament"
the water above.

not to be confused with "the firmament of the heavens" -- another firmament, or empty space, also called "the heavens" - in which the stars, sun, moon and planets are set.

Genesis 1:8a
וַיִּקְרָ֧א אֱלֹהִ֛ים לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם
And [ called | named ] Elohim the [ firmament | expanse ] heavens . . .

Again, One firmament, more than one heaven.

Your own quote tells the truth -- "the firmament of the heavens" --> the (one & only) firmament of the heavens (plural). One firmament consisting of more than one heaven. But still only ONE firmament.

 

[Romans34]

Isaiah 44:9-20
¶They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. (*)
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint. (*)
13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. (*)
15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. (*)
19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? (*) (*)
20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

 

[posthuman]

There is only one firmament - and, everything this side of the "3rd heaven" is in it.

Nope.
scripture clearly describes at least two.

Genesis 1:8​

And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.​

​

Genesis 1:17​

God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth​

​

either the sun, the stars, the miin and the planets are all under the clouds ((as flat earth demands in order to be consistent with scripture)), or the clouds are the upper limit of the first firmament:

Psalms 147:8 ​

He covers the heavens with clouds; ​

He prepares rain for the earth​

 

[posthuman]

Genesis 1:8a
וַיִּקְרָ֧א אֱלֹהִ֛ים לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם
And [ called | named ] Elohim the [ firmament | expanse ] heavens . . .

Again, One firmament, more than one heaven.

Your own quote tells the truth -- "the firmament of the heavens" --> the (one & only) firmament of the heavens (plural). One firmament consisting of more than one heaven. But still only ONE firmament.

Nope.

One space separates waters, another space separates heavens.

The clouds, which are above and are waters, are the upper covering of the lower firmament per Ps. 147.

Scripture is clear.
Fishbowl earth is neither consistent with scripture nor with all observable evidence.

 

[posthuman]

BEFORE there were clouds?

There have been clouds since at least Genesis 1:6, probably even before, there was just no space between them and the other waters.

Scripture is consistent and clear: fishbowl earth is neither.

 

[posthuman]

Unless the Scripture specifically references PRE-FLOOD

Ahem.

Job 38:4-9​

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ​

Tell [Me,] if you have understanding. ​

Who determined its measurements? ​

Surely you know! ​

Or who stretched the line upon it? ​

To what were its foundations fastened? ​

Or who laid its cornerstone, ​

When the morning stars sang together, ​

And all the sons of God shouted for joy? ​

Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, ​

When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb; ​

When I made the clouds its garment, ​

And thick darkness its swaddling band​

 

[posthuman]

Genesis 1:8a

וַיִּקְרָ֧א אֱלֹהִ֛ים לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם

And [ called | named ] Elohim the [ firmament | expanse ] heavens . . .



Again, One firmament, more than one heaven.



Your own quote tells the truth -- "the firmament of the heavens" --> the (one & only) firmament of the heavens (plural). One firmament consisting of more than one heaven. But still only ONE firmament.

Genesis 1:6 says "a" firmament, not "the one and only".

The "the" in v.8 refers back to 6 indicating which one is being spoken of, that's all.

both Psalm 147 and Job 38 clearly describe the clouds being the outer surface of the Genesis 1:6 firmament, in full agreement with Genesis 7.

Job 38 definitely puts the existence of clouds at Genesis 1:2 without any space between them and the seas, consistent with Genesis 1:6 being the creation of a sky between the clouds (waters above) and the seas (waters below)

Job 38 also describes thick darkness (not crazy space water) beyond the clouds at Genesis 1:2 - - outer darkness, where the firmament of the heavens is, separating star from star and planet from planet.


There is no way for your position to be compatible with scripture without demanding the sun moon stars and planets be below the clouds, but the scripture instead agrees with the observed universe.

 

[Romans34]

either the sun, the stars, the miin and the planets are all under the clouds ((as flat earth demands in order to be consistent with scripture))

Please show me ONE documented article where ANY flat earther demanded that sun, moon, and stars are under the clouds. If not, then please stop making this foolish claim.

 

[posthuman]

Please show me ONE documented article where ANY flat earther demanded that sun, moon, and stars are under the clouds. If not, then please stop making this foolish claim.

the point is that of you believe the firmament is a fishbowl at the end of the universe, and you think that's a Biblical view, then you should also believe the sun, planets, moon and stars are under the clouds - because the Bible says the clouds are the outer limit of the firmament.

i am under no impression that fishbowlism is a consistent model though, so it is moot if no one has made this claim.

however, some have indeed made it:

Flat Earthers Prove the Sun is Closer Than the Clouds

 

[WayneNSO]

Strong's Concordance
raqia: an extended surface, expanse
Original Word: רָקִיעַ

Brown-Driver-Briggs
רָקִיעַ noun masculine - Genesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18)

the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7

 

[Romans34]

There have been clouds since at least Genesis 1:6, probably even before, there was just no space between them and the other waters.

Scripture is consistent and clear: fishbowl earth is neither.

Ahem.

Job 38:4-9​

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ​

Tell [Me,] if you have understanding. ​

Who determined its measurements? ​

Surely you know! ​

Or who stretched the line upon it? ​

To what were its foundations fastened? ​

Or who laid its cornerstone, ​

When the morning stars sang together, ​

And all the sons of God shouted for joy? ​

Or [who] shut in the sea with doors, ​

When it burst forth [and] issued from the womb; ​

When I made the clouds its garment, ​

And thick darkness its swaddling band​

I may have to concede there were clouds before the flood (I will check into it further), but Genesis 1:6 has nothing to do with clouds. More on this later.

 

[Romans34]

Genesis 1:6 says "a" firmament, not "the one and only".

The "the" in v.8 refers back to 6 indicating which one is being spoken of, that's all.

both Psalm 147 and Job 38 clearly describe the clouds being the outer surface of the Genesis 1:6 firmament, in full agreement with Genesis 7.

Job 38 definitely puts the existence of clouds at Genesis 1:2 without any space between them and the seas, consistent with Genesis 1:6 being the creation of a sky between the clouds (waters above) and the seas (waters below)

Job 38 also describes thick darkness (not crazy space water) beyond the clouds at Genesis 1:2 - - outer darkness, where the firmament of the heavens is, separating star from star and planet from planet.


There is no way for your position to be compatible with scripture without demanding the sun moon stars and planets be below the clouds, but the scripture instead agrees with the observed universe.

If the clouds are the outer surface of the firmament, and thick darkness is beyond, then is a 747 jet flying above the clouds in "outer darkness"? Does a rocket penetrate "outer space" just beyond the clouds? What is the space called between them and the "vacuum of space", etc?