Marks Of A True Believer In First John.

[Magenta]

Are we saved by Grace or are we saved by how well we perform?

In your theology you are saved by your free will which is nowhere taught in the Bible.

 

[Melach]

At which point in a person's life do we look for these indicators and quantify them so we can judge them to be "true" believers.

What part of a person's life shall we examine, put under the microscope? Can we make allowances for life's hardships and tragedies?

Seems to me like God forgot to give us the metric to objectively assess these markers.

If you want to be the gate keeper of who is a "true" believer and who is not, go for it.

"Lordship salvation" in my experience brings about doubt because the focus is on ones' performance.
It also creates a very judgemental attitude about the salvation of others.

Some Christians are more "faithful" than others.
While all believers should desire to walk in the Spirit and rest in Jesus, many do not and why because they lack good teaching and support.

Perhaps the issue is the teaching of the correct Gospel and what is discipleship.

nice opinion. but the OP quoted scripture, you are disagreeing with scripture.

 

[loveme1]

The Lord’s prayer is our daily reminder and acknowledgment! A willingness to walk the path of Righteousness.. being guided by the Good shepherd. Under Grace.


Let us receive understanding..

Romans 6

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[rrcn]

Sin is being discussed pretty thoroughly here but no one has referenced the least wordy and most accurate definition of sin.
[1Jo 3:4 KJV] 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[HeIsHere]

nice opinion. but the OP quoted scripture, you are disagreeing with scripture.

I am disagreeing with his interpretation and application of scripture.

Do you have an objective analysis metric you can share?

 

[Melach]

I am disagreeing with his interpretation and application of scripture.

Do you have an objective analysis metric you can share?

why do you need a "you can commit 20 sins a day" type of verse? just to get to 19?

 

[HeIsHere]

why do you need a "you can commit 20 sins a day" type of verse? just to get to 19?

How about this....

But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
~ Hebrews 10:15‭-‬17​

of sin1, because they do not believe in Me1; of righteousness2, because I go to My Father and you2 see Me no more; of judgment3, because the ruler of this world3 is judged.
~ John 16:9‭-‬11​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Are you claiming to be without sin?
There is a difference between sin in the life of the believer and that of the unbeliever.
The unbeliever lives in the realm of sin, bound by it, a slave to it.
The believer may fall into sin on occasion, but does not make a habit of it or practice it. This is what first John teaches.

As a believer grows in grace, he or she, through mortification, learns to put sin to death. For example, I used to have a hair trigger temper. Over the years, by God's grace, I have conquered it. Likewise. the believer , as they grow in grace find victory over sins, sinning less & less. This is sanctification. It is never perfectly complete in this life however.
This is what I mean.

I know it is hard to understand that the spirit of a saved person is holy and righteous (because he is one spirit with the Lord). And I know it is easy to believe that a saved person's flesh becomes more righteous over time. But sanctification is not progressive.

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (Heb 10:14)​

The only way to thwart the desires of the flesh is to live out the new life that Christ has given us... walking with Him as He leads, guides, directs, teaches, corrects, and comforts us from inside our hearts. The flesh does not become better as we do this, we just deny it what it wants.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

“Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But there comes a time when we have to grow up and need more than milk need mest and potatoes

“For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In every family there’s are youngsters and elders

“Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”
‭‭James‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It’s a conscious battle how much we know is how much we ourself are accountable for

““The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭

We have to be careful because the more we understand we’re setting up our judgement not everyone else’s .

““For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open. Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more;

whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:16-18‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The more a person grasps consciously the more they are held accountable table for like children babies don’t have any rules they aren’t accountable not able they don’t know anything yet but ten year olds can’t throw crying fits like babies they know better thier parent taught them better.

So now they are accountable to not throw baby fits they aren’t babes anymore . But even the babes who aren’t mature and drink only milk belong to God that’s all they know and it keeps them fed they can’t digest the meet yet

“Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.

…. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. ….

For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ ”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:1, 9-11‬ ‭

“So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:12-13‬ ‭

as one people only know a little bit and that’s still Okay some people know a lot so now it’s not okay to live as if they know a little like a babe

I'm trying to help people come to a better understanding of the truth.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm trying to help people come to a better understanding of the truth.

I’m not arguing what you are saying or your intent I’m saying share it with them

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭

what I’m saying is Jesus doctrine is not the law of Moses it’s the things that Jesus taught believers in him. Like this this is truth and it is light and life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

….And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:27-31, 35-38, 46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I’m saying is look at the things that Jesus taught that’s the truth not telling people if they don’t somehow become sinless they aren’t really a Christian or disciple “”a true “ one .

If we first learn and then share those things that’s the truth and believers of it will understand it from Christ like you do and also notice who was actually willing to hear Jesus and then who rejected him and always rejected his teaching or refused to hear it

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they thought they weren’t sinners nd didn’t wanna accept Jesus because he was accepting sinners and fellowshipping with them. This caused them not to listen tonjesus like all the sinners were doing because his doctrine is for sinners to call us to repentance and life again they were sinners too but they were too busy noticing the other sinners who ran to trust what Jesus had to say knowing he is the lord

“And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous,

but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:10-13‬ ‭

The truth is we’re all sinners and we have to come to Jesus to hear the truth and be changed by that belief of the gospel we aren’t going to be able to Will ourselves we have to let him heal us and teach.

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; ( repent )

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind( believe the gospel the truth )

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


AlOt of times Christian’s never really even hear what Jesus our Lord taught in his sermons and said is the truth , and judgement of God that saves before we share it is my point.

He was of course saying to believers “ you need to stop sinning “ but this isn’t what defines them as a believer in him or disciple brother .

those sinners and tax collectors who came near to hear what Jesus was saying they did that because they believed seeing all those miracles he was doing they believed he was the messiah sent of God so they drew near to him acknowledging thier sins before him rather than acting righteous outwardly before him they knew he is the savior the Lord.

The ones refusing to hear him are always looking for a reason to accuse and argue him , they won’t hear what he’s saying but they don’t want anyone else to hear it either because he’s promising “sinners “ a redemption through faith in him

 

[Nehemiah6]

Claiming that the flesh can satisfy the righteous requirements of the law denies that we have "true righteousness and holiness" in Christ. You don't see that?

Now you have brought "the flesh" into this discussion and again made a false accusation. Who said anything about the flesh being righteous? That would be plainly stupid. Kindly go back and read the OP, then retract all your foolish accusations. Have you even read the first epistle of John? Does he tell Christians to rely on the flesh?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

what I’m saying is look at the things that Jesus taught that’s the truth not telling people if they don’t somehow become sinless they aren’t really a Christian or disciple “”a true “ one .

I'm not telling people they are lost if they are not sinless. I am telling them that "the new man" was "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). I am telling them that "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). I am telling them that "if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10). What do these things mean to you?

What they tell me is that when Christ came to live in our hearts, we became one with Him in our innermost being. We still deal with the flesh, and it is still corrupt. But the corruption of the flesh does not bleed over into our innermost being, though we are grieved by our closeness to it. And to me it is foolish to think that the old man (the flesh) can be trained to be good or that the new man (the spirit) can be corrupted by the flesh. So, my message is to put off the old man and put on the new man.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Now you have brought "the flesh" into this discussion and again made a false accusation. Who said anything about the flesh being righteous? That would be plainly stupid. Kindly go back and read the OP, then retract all your foolish accusations. Have you even read the first epistle of John? Does he tell Christians to rely on the flesh?

The OP says A true believer is one who walks in the light, keeps His commandments, has a Christlike walk, loves other Christians, practices righteousness, does not continue in sin, and overcomes the world. He goes on to say "discipleship is the evidence of saving faith" and "as Christians we will sin less as we grow in grace". Are not most of these things only about the outward appearance (the flesh) and have nothing to do with the heart (the spirit/Spirit)?

And yes, I have read the first epistle of John. I've even translated the entire epistle word by word from Greek into English as part of my beginners Greek course.

Let me ask you... When John wrote, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 Jn 3:9), was he writing about the new man or the old man? Certainly, the old man is not "born of God", is he? Is not the new man born of God? Is it not the new man who can not sin? Why? Isn't it because "His seed remains" in the new man, and as a result the new man cannot sin because he has been born of God?

If we water down these statements (and others like them in 1 John) and make them about "practicing sin" or "continuing in sin", we move the discussion away from what is always true about the new man and put the focus to our success (or lack thereof) at taming the flesh. That's why I bring the flesh into this conversation.

Do you think the flesh can be trained to be good? Or do you think our sins come from another source besides the flesh?

 

[HeIsHere]

The OP says A true believer is one who walks in the light, keeps His commandments, has a Christlike walk, loves other Christians, practices righteousness, does not continue in sin, and overcomes the world. He goes on to say "discipleship is the evidence of saving faith" and "as Christians we will sin less as we grow in grace". Are not most of these things only about the outward appearance (the flesh) and have nothing to do with the heart (the spirit/Spirit)?

And yes, I have read the first epistle of John. I've even translated the entire epistle word by word from Greek into English as part of my beginners Greek course.

Let me ask you... When John wrote, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God" (1 Jn 3:9), was he writing about the new man or the old man? Certainly, the old man is not "born of God", is he? Is not the new man born of God? Is it not the new man who can not sin? Why? Isn't it because "His seed remains" in the new man, and as a result the new man cannot sin because he has been born of God?

If we water down these statements (and others like them in 1 John) and make them about "practicing sin" or "continuing in sin", we move the discussion away from what is always true about the new man and put the focus to our success (or lack thereof) at taming the flesh. That's why I bring the flesh into this conversation.

Do you think the flesh can be trained to be good? Or do you think our sins come from another source besides the flesh?

Agree, I like the way you have framed this.

I think if we consider the background of the letter and that fact that the audience is Jewish and the letter is about assurance after some had left the group who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah provides the bigger picture.

I know there are some theologians who teach the flesh is being perfected like MacArthur, I think that really makes this letter a challenge to understand,

John seems to be comparing the new righteousness of Christ within, which cannot sin, and the flesh which does sin.

Sad people read it that way only as a "Christian stress test" there is more. John's message is very positive and affirming.

1 John 1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.


1 John 2:19-22
By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think if we consider the background of the letter and that fact that the audience is Jewish...

How could the audience be only Jewish when John was writing after many Gentiles had come into the Church? And now we are the audience. We should not be misleading others. Some hyper-grace people claim that this letter was written to Gnostics or heretics and not to Christians. More nonsense.

 

[JohnRH]

Can we know objectively that a person is a true believer?

Are you asking, "Can we know objectively that [another] person [other than ourself] is a true believer?"?

A true believer.......
1. Walks in the light 1:7.

It would be more accurate to say that a "fellowshipper" walks in the light. Don't get "true believer" and "fellowshipper" mixed up; they're not the same. A true believer can wander out of fellowship with God; the result is that his joy will not be full (v.4).

 

[PaulThomson]

Can we know objectively that a person is a true believer? The Apostle John thought so.
A true believer.......
1. Walks in the light 1:7.
2. Keeps His commandments 2:3.
3. Has a Christlike walk 2:6.
4. Loves other Christians. 2:10, 3:14.
5. Practices righteousness. 2:29, 3:7.
6. Does not continue in sin. 3:6,9.
7. Overcomes the World. 5:4.

Should you think the standard is too high, this demonstrates how low we have fallen from the Scriptures.
The modern Gospel avoids talking about sin, repentance and the cost in following Jesus.
Is it no wonder that we have so many 'counterfeit' Christians.
Multitudes of so called 'Christians" are heading for a Christless Eternity.

It is time we returned to a Scriptural Gospel and the claims of Christ.

Perhaps the list is not for others to determine whether I am truly a believing Christian, but for me to determine whether I am truly a believing Christian, We may be getting off the purpose of the letter, if we focus on using these criteria to police others. John's intention may have been that we use these criteria to police ourselves.

1 John 1:6 "If we say.... we lie...
7 But if we walk...we have fellowship... cleanses us...
8. If we say.... we deceive ourselves.. not in us.
9.If we confess... to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us....
10. If we say that we... we make him... not in us.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Agree, I like the way you have framed this.
I know there are some theologians who teach the flesh is being perfected like MacArthur, I think that really makes this letter a challenge to understand

The false doctrine of progressive sanctification is certainly a hinderance. We would do better to put off the flesh instead ofthinking it gets better over time. And for the life of me, I do not see why people can't grasp the fact that the "new man" was "was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). How can the new man become more sanctified over time if he was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness?

It is true, however, that self-sanctification improves over time as we learn to walk in lock step with the Spirit. And the call to put off the old man and put on the new man is exactly that -- self sanctification. And it is essentially the same as walking in the Spirit. And only those who live in the Spirit can do it. And this is why it is said, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in [lock-step with] the Spirit." (Ga 5:25). This is self-sanctification.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Perhaps the list is not for others to determine whether I am truly a believing Christian, but for me to determine whether I am truly a believing Christian, We may be getting off the purpose of the letter, if we focus on using these criteria to police others. John's intention may have been that we use these criteria to police ourselves.

1 John 1:6 "If we say.... we lie...
7 But if we walk...we have fellowship... cleanses us...
8. If we say.... we deceive ourselves.. not in us.
9.If we confess... to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us....
10. If we say that we... we make him... not in us.

I think you are right when you say John wrote these things for us to know we are saved, not so that we could know that other people are saved. We can say for certain this is true of the following passage because John says it explicitly.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 Jn 5:9–13)​

 

[HeIsHere]

The false doctrine of progressive sanctification is certainly a hinderance. We would do better to put off the flesh instead ofthinking it gets better over time. And for the life of me, I do not see why people can't grasp the fact that the "new man" was "was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). How can the new man become more sanctified over time if he was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness?

It is true, however, that self-sanctification improves over time as we learn to walk in lock step with the Spirit. And the call to put off the old man and put on the new man is exactly that -- self sanctification. And it is essentially the same as walking in the Spirit. And only those who live in the Spirit can do it. And this is why it is said, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in [lock-step with] the Spirit." (Ga 5:25). This is self-sanctification.

Absolutely agree on the first paragraph!!

Not sure I would use the term self-sanctification, I like the language of consistently leaning into our new nature/the righteousness of the Spirit within.
We identify with certain terms so if it speaks to you as a way of encapsulating paragraph one, then that is what matters!