There will be no Rapture!!!

[cv5]

Gotta say it... I must disagree (on this point).


This is why (way back, in our long-ago convos) I said that this is why I do not believe this verse is "an idiom" [or whatever] speaking of "the Feast of Trumpets" / Rosh Hashana (as indicating "rapture timing").

IOW, I do not believe Jesus "intentionally inserted" a comment about "our Rapture" into a CONTEXT which wasn't ABOUT that at all.
He's referring to His Second Coming to the earth, here (in this verse), IOW.



Sorry to disagree with you, brother, but I do believe this particular "take" on it causes confusion (regarding this text / context and what Jesus was covering here). I understand how the "reasoning" goes... that Jesus must have been referring to "our Rapture" because of His words "[day/hour] no man KNOWS" [but they WOULD if He meant His "Second Coming" to earth, the reasoning goes] ...but this isn't what He's saying here.

See, the problem is:
If verse 36 is not indicating the F of T's, then what is it supposed to illustrate?
Another thought: it is a simple matter for mere men to ascertain the day of the F of T's by simple observation.
God need not keep secret something that anyone can tell.

But the rapture? That is altogether a matter of the UTMOST secrecy, and is in effect God's trump card. Only after the rapture can Satan react. And Satan DOES react, rapidly, vigorously, and violently.

 

[sawdust]

and you can't discern well :

"demon that causes a person to be lame and confined to a wheel chair...
Can, by mutual agreement, remove itself from that body to make it look like its a healing from God."

Yes, demons inhabit the body and just as a disease can inhabit the body and cripple it from functioning correctly, so can a demon do a similar thing.

Luke 13: 10-16
10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”

 

[cv5]

Gotta say it... I must disagree (on this point).


This is why (way back, in our long-ago convos) I said that this is why I do not believe this verse is "an idiom" [or whatever] speaking of "the Feast of Trumpets" / Rosh Hashana (as indicating "rapture timing").

IOW, I do not believe Jesus "intentionally inserted" a comment about "our Rapture" into a CONTEXT which wasn't ABOUT that at all.
He's referring to His Second Coming to the earth, here (in this verse), IOW.



Sorry to disagree with you, brother, but I do believe this particular "take" on it causes confusion (regarding this text / context and what Jesus was covering here). I understand how the "reasoning" goes... that Jesus must have been referring to "our Rapture" because of His words "[day/hour] no man KNOWS" [but they WOULD if He meant His "Second Coming" to earth, the reasoning goes] ...but this isn't what He's saying here.

How does this sound:

Rapture first. Not linked to any feast day, and timing utterly unknown to any created being.
Then follows the DOTL at the very next F of T's new moon to the very day?

Sounds plausible, and matches the salient aspects of the microcosm that is Joshua and the conquest of Jericho/Canaan.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(key words "knoweth.....Father only"), which is of course....

The harpazo/snatch/rapture. And the rapture has no time stamp of any kind.

Wish I had more time to flesh out (with you) how I'm viewing this instead (I'm on a time crunch presently, so this will have to wait).

But just to say, I disagree that the rapture has no time stamp of any kind (at all) and that's the reason for Jesus' words "knoweth.....Father only," as you say.

And what I mean is, if He's referring (per context) to His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (as I believe He is), the word He uses "knoweth [no man... not even Jesus at that time]" is in the "perfect indicative" and thus is NOT saying no one ever will or can know: Jesus has known ever since His ascension, and then some 60+ YEARS LATER *disclosed* that very information [2nd Coming timing, PLUS] in the 95ad-written Book of Revelation...

Now it's true that during the Trib yrs many (as we know) will still DISREGARD HIS WORD (just as in the days of Noah, when those who "perished" in the flood had disregarded the Word of God via Noah and thus perished in the flood judgment). Plus some/many will have the added thing, that "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" in / during the Trib yrs... on top of their disregarding His Word (so will be "deceived" and ignorant of its "timing"... even though the Word of God spells it out!!)







Bottom line: "[day / hour] no man KNOWETH" isn't making the point that no one will / can EVER know. It was later DISCLOSED by Jesus (in Rev, written well after He said this, and after His ascension--at which point HE / JESUS NOW KNOWS... and v.1 of Rev is, as I see it, saying that very thing!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, demons inhabit the body and just as a disease can inhabit the body and cripple it from functioning correctly, so can a demon do a similar thing.
Luke 13: 10-16
10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11 and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” 13 Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

14 Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”
15 The Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16 Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”

Good point! As was Genez's in his original post on that topic.

 

[Genez]

Wish I had more time to flesh out (with you) how I'm viewing this instead (I'm on a time crunch presently, so this will have to wait).

But just to say, I disagree that the rapture has no time stamp of any kind (at all) and that's the reason for Jesus' words "knoweth.....Father only," as you say.

Once he was glorified? He knew the day and the hour.

When Jesus said only that Father knows?
He was yet under obligation to be as a man... denying himself of his perfect right to function as God.

Who, though he was eternally existing in the form of God, did not count equality with God
a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in
the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming
obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Philippians 2:6-8

 

[cv5]

Wish I had more time to flesh out (with you) how I'm viewing this instead (I'm on a time crunch presently, so this will have to wait).

But just to say, I disagree that the rapture has no time stamp of any kind (at all) and that's the reason for Jesus' words "knoweth.....Father only," as you say.

And what I mean is, if He's referring (per context) to His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (as I believe He is), the word He uses "knoweth [no man... not even Jesus at that time]" is in the "perfect indicative" and thus is NOT saying no one ever will or can know: Jesus has known ever since His ascension, and then some 60+ YEARS LATER *disclosed* that very information [2nd Coming timing, PLUS] in the 95ad-written Book of Revelation...

Now it's true that during the Trib yrs many (as we know) will still DISREGARD HIS WORD (just as in the days of Noah, when those who "perished" in the flood had disregarded the Word of God via Noah and thus perished in the flood judgment). Plus some/many will have the added thing, that "God shall SEND TO THEM strong delusion SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" in / during the Trib yrs... on top of their disregarding His Word (so will be "deceived" and ignorant of its "timing"... even though the Word of God spells it out!!)







Bottom line: "[day / hour] no man KNOWETH" isn't making the point that no one will / can EVER know. It was later DISCLOSED by Jesus (in Rev, written well after He said this, and after His ascension--at which point HE / JESUS NOW KNOWS... and v.1 of Rev is, as I see it, saying that very thing!)

Yes, I recall those many posts of yours. I have read most of them.

My point is simple: Jesus is pointing to the 9th stage of the Jewish wedding ritual....the snatch/rapture, in verse 36. That's about it.
Furthermore, as I have stated in other posts, many people assume verse 36 (and parallel statements) means that Jesus did not know something that He knew later on. I disagree with this. God cannot NOT know anything (ever, like ever), and the Trinity never keeps secrets from one another.

No, but Jews of that time knew that this statement was linked to the 9th stage of the Jewish wedding ceremony, its intended purpose.
And yes, of course, the signs of the times are apparent to believers, so when I say utterly unknown, I mean the day and hour, and not linked to any cyclical feast day. Satan will not be able to front-run the rapture.

 

[cv5]

Bottom line: "[day / hour] no man KNOWETH" isn't making the point that no one will / can EVER know.

I do agree with this. Definitely. The statement is not intended to mean that. It is intended to convey the bridegroom "coming as a thief" rapture idiom.

Believers WILL BE WATCHING and prepared. And they WILL know the time is near. Just like any good newly betrothed Jewish girl. But not the exact moment. And neither will the enemy. Who is also watching.

And I agree....unbelievers will not be watching and will be stricken unawares.

 

[cv5]

Here you go. You will need the preceding and following few lectures to really get a grasp on the subject.

Question: apart from the Bride, who really knows that the Bride is gone? The reciprocal?
Just as we know the sign of the nation Israel parable of the fig tree, who will know of the harpazo?

Bride Taken; Wife Will Know. And Israel will remember Lot's wife

Bride Taken; Wife Will Know | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)

 

[cv5]

Here you go. You will need the preceding and following few lectures to really get a grasp on the subject.

Question: apart from the Bride, who really knows that the Bride is gone? The reciprocal?
Just as we know the sign of the nation Israel parable of the fig tree, who will know of the harpazo?

Bride Taken; Wife Will Know. And Israel will remember Lot's wife

Bride Taken; Wife Will Know | Cliffside Community Chapel (sermonaudio.com)

Question: apart from the Bride, who really NOTICES/BECOMES AWARE that the Bride is gone? The reciprocal?
Just as we know the sign of the nation Israel parable of the fig tree, who will NOTICE/BECOME AWARE of the harpazo?

 

[sawdust]

Question: apart from the Bride, who really NOTICES/BECOMES AWARE that the Bride is gone? The reciprocal?
Just as we know the sign of the nation Israel parable of the fig tree, who will NOTICE/BECOME AWARE of the harpazo?

It's an interesting question as it is literally a "blink and you'll miss it" event.

 

[CS1]

What happens when the demon that was causing a problem leaves?

Is the demon healing? Or removing the cause for an unexplained problem?

first off, can you show me the word of God in the New Testament where a demon did leave a person to convince people into thinking healing was done? Also, show me where Jesus or the Apostles healed a person, and the demon came back to make them sick again.

Show me in the New Testament where a demon that was possessing a person left and came back. Or do the scriptures show us the Years of torment until they were set free? I will wait.

 

[Cameron143]

first off, can you show me the word of God in the New Testament where a demon did leave a person to convince people into thinking healing was done? Also, show me where Jesus or the Apostles healed a person, and the demon came back to make them sick again.

Show me in the New Testament where a demon that was possessing a person left and came back. Or do the scriptures show us the Years of torment until they were set free? I will wait.

Are you saying it cannot happen that a demon leaves and then comes back?

 

[CS1]

Are you saying it cannot happen that a demon leaves and then comes back?

I am saying that we can say that a demon will leave to make it look like a person has been healed. Demons don't play with the name and Supreme Authority of Jesus. If the person who commands the demon to leave has no authority to do so, we see what happens in the Book of Acts 19:14-16 as an example


14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, [a]overpowered them, and prevailed against [b]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

 

[CS1]

Are you saying it cannot happen that a demon leaves and then comes back?

also, how many demons have you cast out lately? Asking for a friend

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

See, the problem is:
If verse 36 is not indicating the F of T's, then what is it supposed to illustrate?
Another thought: it is a simple matter for mere men to ascertain the day of the F of T's by simple observation.
God need not keep secret something that anyone can tell.

Just a brief comment here (on the bold ^ ).

I am among those who believe that Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles (John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh and TABERNACLED among us")--and was conceived on Hanukkah 1 / Festival of Lights / Feast of Dedication (John 10:22)--but that Tabernacles will also be celebrated / observed ['keep'] in the future MK age (Zech14:16-19--the celebration honoring Him [His "BIRTHday" so to speak]).






Verse 36 I believe is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), per context, and not "our Rapture"... and the "GREAT" trumpet will be sounded at that time (per the parallel passages: Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13). I see Rev16:15-16's wording "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" being in the CONTEXT (of wording also) pertaining to the "Armageddon" time-slot (Second Coming / Armageddon time-slot, being precisely when "kings go out to battle"... on a very specific day [of the year], per OT info--and THIS is where the "connection" lies... not necessarily on the FoTr however). IOW, "Behold, I come AS A THIEF" at Armageddon, not for "our Rapture" event.

That's as much as I want to share at this point.








[enjoying the exchanged of ideas, as always]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Question: apart from the Bride, who really NOTICES/BECOMES AWARE that the Bride is gone?

As I've said in many past posts, those of Israel (many, not all) will be among the very first to have that "aha moment" and realize what it is that has just taken place.

 

[Cameron143]

I am saying that we can say that a demon will leave to make it look like a person has been healed. Demons don't play with the name and Supreme Authority of Jesus. If the person who commands the demon to leave has no authority to do so, we see what happens in the Book of Acts 19:14-16 as an example


14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, [a]overpowered them, and prevailed against [b]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Gotcha.

 

[Cameron143]

also, how many demons have you cast out lately? Asking for a friend

Does this include the terrible twos? Looking back, maybe I did and didn't realize it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

many people assume verse 36 (and parallel statements) means that Jesus did not know something that He knew later on. I disagree with this. God cannot NOT know anything (ever, like ever), and the Trinity never keeps secrets from one another.

So what do you believe Matt24:36 is saying, when it says, "But concerning that day and hour, no one knows [perfect indicative], not even the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, except the Father only.:" ?





Isn't this saying that (at the time Jesus spoke this) the Father "only" is who knows this [info], but not the Son [up to and at the time spoken]?
In other words, the one knows what the other does not [yet]. (regardless of WHICH time-slot each of us believes it's referencing)