What Changed?

[Cameron143]

Paul says in Romans 9 that -

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Adam's sin caused their death. It is not necessary for Adam's sin to be imputed to a child for the child to die. The child can be prone to death despite being sinless, simply because he is a descendant of Adam.

If I say that the person who murders will go to prison, that does not mean that everyone who goes to prison must be a murderer. Saying that the soul that sins will die, does not mean that anyone who dies must have sinned.

I see no connection of the verses you shared with our discussion. Either sin causes death or it doesn't. If it does, someone who hasn't sin cannot die.

Nature also has been corrupted. The inanimate part of creation didn't sin. Why is it affected?

 

[Magenta]

I see no connection of the verses you shared with our discussion. Either sin causes death or it doesn't. If it does, someone who hasn't sin cannot die.

Nature also has been corrupted. The inanimate part of creation didn't sin. Why is it affected?

There are none righteous, no, not one! Well, except for maybe gala apples.

 

[Ballaurena]

Romans 5:12 is telling us that Adam's sin was imputed to us in the same way Christ's righteousness is. Just as Christ is the 2nd Adam and the results of His actions are imputed to us, so too the first Adam's actions imputed something to us.

The reason this is so is because God chose both Adam and Christ to represent the human race. In Adam all died. In Christ all live. The first representative failed. The 2nd did not.

Not to understand the above is the reason many fall into a myriad of divergent doctrine. There is simply no way a child could die apart from sin because sin causes death. If children do die, and we know that they do, it can only be that sin has been laid to their account.

Not going to get into everything, but children do sin. Very young babies may be a different matter, however, as they have yet to make any decisions.

 

[Cameron143]

Not going to get into everything, but children do sin. Very young babies may be a different matter, however, as they have yet to make any decisions.

Does a child in the womb sin?

 

[Ballaurena]

Does a child in the womb sin?

As I said, very young babies may be a different matter.

 

[Cameron143]

As I said, very young babies may be a different matter.

That's my point. Sin causes death. There are some who have died yet not sinned. How is that possible?

 

[SaysWhat]

That's my point. Sin causes death. There are some who have died yet not sinned. How is that possible?

I think the adversary looks for weaknesses in the living, rather sin is involved or not. Though certainly doesn't mean there's a gain of something from it.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded, be alert. Your adversary the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.

 

[Cameron143]

I think the adversary looks for weaknesses in the living, rather sin is involved or not. Though certainly doesn't mean there's a gain of something from it.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded, be alert. Your adversary the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, looking for anyone he can devour.

Thanks for the comments, but what do they have to do with the conversation at hand?

 

[Ballaurena]

That's my point. Sin causes death. There are some who have died yet not sinned. How is that possible?

A good point, though I believe it's more complicated. I wasn't looking to solve this puzzle, though. I simply wanted to make sure you all had the right pieces to try putting it together with. More importantly, I didn't want errant doctrine to go unaddressed.

 

[PaulThomson]

I see no connection of the verses you shared with our discussion. Either sin causes death or it doesn't. If it does, someone who hasn't sin cannot die.

Nature also has been corrupted. The inanimate part of creation didn't sin. Why is it affected?

You are using the negative inference fallacy: either murder causes incarceration, or it doesn't. If it does, someone who hasn't murdered can't be incarcerated.

Maybe Adam's sin is also imputed to cows, sheep and tigers? *irony*

 

[PaulThomson]

I see no connection of the verses you shared with our discussion. Either sin causes death or it doesn't. If it does, someone who hasn't sin cannot die.

Nature also has been corrupted. The inanimate part of creation didn't sin. Why is it affected?

And yet children in the womb have done neither good nor evil, a la Jacob and Esau, and yet many children in the womb die. Who or what kills them? It's not God. It is the devil who directly or through his minions, steals, kills and destroys.

 

[Komentaja]

And yet children in the womb have done neither good nor evil, a la Jacob and Esau, and yet many children in the womb die. Who or what kills them? It's not God. It is the devil who directly or through his minions, steals, kills and destroys.

How does the devil kill a baby in the womb? Why doesn't God stop it? Furthermore: I would argue what kills them is the idea of Original sin. When Adam sinned, death came into the world, that is why we see animals die, we see babies die, sure the animals haven't sinned, neither have babies, but they are born into this cursed world and death is part and parcel of it until the Lord Jesus Christ comes back and after the Kingdom era will destroy death.

 

[PaulThomson]

How does the devil kill a baby in the womb? Why doesn't God stop it? Furthermore: I would argue what kills them is the idea of Original sin. When Adam sinned, death came into the world, that is why we see animals die, we see babies die, sure the animals haven't sinned, neither have babies, but they are born into this cursed world and death is part and parcel of it until the Lord Jesus Christ comes back and after the Kingdom era will destroy death.

You are free to believe whatever you want. to believe. Carry on. The death of babies in the womb arise from all sorts of causes, but alll of them are downstream result of Adam allowing sin to take a foothold in his body and his developing a family that became trained by him in his own folly, who subsequently allowed sin to take a foothold in their bodies. This has led to violence, pollution, bad hygene and sanitation, genetic weakening, devil worship - and many other debilitating causes of infant mortality. These effects of sin kill babies.

God does not stop it directly, because it is a result of our sin. He tries to get us to deal with the fallout from our sin and He has given us power and authority in Christ to overthrow the devil and his devices and to destroy the works of the devil.

Instead of blaming the parents or the child, as Jesus contemporaries were inclined t do, many today seem keen to blame God. However, as Jesus said,
"But so that the works of God may be seen, we must work the works of Him who sent us while it is day, Night comes when no man can work."

 

[JohnRH]

Maybe Adam's sin is also imputed to cows, sheep and tigers? *irony*

It seems it may have been:
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:20-22 (KJV)
I don't know if the word "imputed" would be accurate, but as a direct result of Adam's sin an animal had to die (Gen. 3:21).

 

[Hammer]

God gave us free will so Satan doesn't kill babies; we do. Some give Satan *too much power, but he can do nothing without God's permission (See the story of Job).
Think about this: Satan can only be in one place at a time, so how does he attack so many at once? I bet that at any given time, half the Christians in the world are accusing Satan of attacking them.
*https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_90.cfm

 

[homwardbound]

What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?

Yes, drawn to God at age 12
Yes resisted, did my own thing, yet had in me the care that would not quit. I became an alcoholic at age 14, my sister died at age 18 on an overdose. my dad died at my age 17, he was 63. Then my brother died at age 31, I was 21
I started growing in grace from then on. I quit alcohol at age 26-27. I quit other things since, I am not perfect by me ever or by anyone else either. but God in Son for me and all the world, God continues to never forsake me, never harmed me, never will. Yet the troubles I have been in, can be viewed as if God did them to me.
I do not see it that way. I see this, even though I have been in many adversities, God only wanted what is best for me.
I see Jeremiah 29:11 as is for us all from God to us all. Even though it can be viewed as not for all, literally not saying it is.
That to me is others straining out gnats and swallowing camels
I see to not doubt, not even a modicum of doubt, to not entertain doubt why?

Isaiah 7:9
Living Bible

9 Samaria is the capital of Ephraim alone, and King Pekah’s power will not increase. You don’t believe me? If you want me to protect you, you must learn to believe what I say.”

 

[homwardbound]

It seems it may have been:
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Romans 8:20-22 (KJV)
I don't know if the word "imputed" would be accurate, but as a direct result of Adam's sin an animal had to die (Gen. 3:21).

death came to all, not a few, all. therfore Christ died too. To save us in his resurrection after his one time only death, willingly took away all sin but Unbelief to this done work. Reconciled to God as if we have not ever sinned. Wow

Isaiah 6:1-7

Living Bible

6 The year King Uzziah died I saw the Lord! He was sitting on a lofty throne, and the Temple was filled with his glory. 2 Hovering about him were mighty, six-winged angels of fire. With two of their wings they covered their faces, with two others they covered their feet, and with two they flew.3 In a great antiphonal chorus they sang, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is filled with his glory.” 4 Such singing it was! It shook the Temple to its foundations, and suddenly the entire sanctuary was filled with smoke.
5 Then I said, “My doom is sealed, for I am a foul-mouthed sinner, a member of a sinful, foul-mouthed race; and I have looked upon the King, the Lord of heaven’s armies.”
6 Then one of the mighty angels flew over to the altar and with a pair of tongs picked out a burning coal. 7 He touched my lips with it and said, “Now you are pronounced ‘not guilty’ because this coal has touched your lips. Your sins are all forgiven.”

Son did this for us the people in his willing death, who could have refused it, and not go though with it, yet did
Wow, woe is me too, thank you

 

[BillyBob]

There are none righteous, no, not one! Well, except for maybe gala apples.

Thank goodness you did not forget the Gala!

 

[BillyBob]

Yes, drawn to God at age 12
Yes resisted, did my own thing, yet had in me the care that would not quit. I became an alcoholic at age 14, my sister died at age 18 on an overdose. my dad died at my age 17, he was 63. Then my brother died at age 31, I was 21
I started growing in grace from then on. I quit alcohol at age 26-27. I quit other things since, I am not perfect by me ever or by anyone else either. but God in Son for me and all the world, God continues to never forsake me, never harmed me, never will. Yet the troubles I have been in, can be viewed as if God did them to me.
I do not see it that way. I see this, even though I have been in many adversities, God only wanted what is best for me.
I see Jeremiah 29:11 as is for us all from God to us all. Even though it can be viewed as not for all, literally not saying it is.
That to me is others straining out gnats and swallowing camels
I see to not doubt, not even a modicum of doubt, to not entertain doubt why?

Isaiah 7:9
Living Bible

9 Samaria is the capital of Ephraim alone, and King Pekah’s power will not increase. You don’t believe me? If you want me to protect you, you must learn to believe what I say.”

Drawn - Yes!
Resisted - Yes!
Yet the power of God overcame your resistance!
Praise the Lord!

 

[Magenta]

my sister died at age 18 on an overdose. my dad died at my age 17, he was 63. Then my brother died at age 31, I was 21

With Deepest Sympathy

I started growing in grace from then on. I quit alcohol at age 26-27. I quit other things since, I am not perfect by me ever or by anyone else either. but God in Son for me and all the world, God continues to never forsake me, never harmed me, never will. Yet the troubles I have been in, can be viewed as if God did them to me.

Praise the Lord