There will be no Rapture!!!

[brmicke]

What you have said is a complete misunderstanding of that verse. Paul talks about the Resurrection/Rapture in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. And let's stick with the KJB. In both passages he explains that the resurrected saints will PRECEDE (go before) the raptured saints, but everything will be in "the twinkling of an eye". So in fact it is one glorious event with all the saints meeting the Lord in the air and going up to Heaven.

I understand your thinking, I had thought that as well, however -

You are ignoring the summation of the conversation in 1Th 5:6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Rapture Alternative

As an aside - the root of the Greek word for "twinkling" translates to "Casting", referring to when Peter walked on water as long as He looked at Jesus.

First and Second Resurrection

1 Cor 15

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I understand your thinking, I had thought that as well, however -

You are ignoring the summation of the conversation in 1Th 5:6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Keep reading further down (to v.10--using the SAME "sleep [G2518]" word as v.6!)... the same "us" is further down, here:

(and YES, in THIS context it is referring to unbelievers who are "spiritually unaware" [those who "sleep [G2518]"]--THIS CONTEXT here is not speaking of "death" like chpt 4 had been speaking of: "those who sleep [G2837, vv.13,14,15] through [/in] Jesus" [i.e. the saints who've died PRIOR to the time-slot being referenced]--DIFFERENT GRK WORD)


... but be mindful of the distinct CONTEXT here (in 1Th5):

"9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation [an eschatological 'salvation' per CONTEXT] through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, SO THAT, WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH [same Grk word as in v.6! G1127]
*OR* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same Grk word as in v.6! G2518 (not the different Grk word in 1Th4!)],
together WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him we may live."



--"[so that] whether we might watch [G1127], OR whether we might sleep [G2518]" (same CONTEXT and same 2 Grk words as in v.6!!)

 

[brmicke]

Thats crazy talk right there buddy......

And of course a vacuous pretention without any Scriptural support.

In 1 Thess 5:4 the "Day" had come upon the "backslidden sleepers" as a thief.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Paul did not want this to happen to those who remained awake.

What "Day" is Paul referring to in 1 Cor 3:13 -

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is

Before learning these new things you need to realize that the only Second Coming illustrated by Scripture is a spiritual one as is found in Acts 3:20 and Matt 14:23.

That's crazy talk right there buddy......

And of course a vacuous pretention without any Scriptural support.

There are certain things that you are not aware of -

Before you can learn more you have to realize that the Rapture doctrine was introduced by people in the 1800's. It is not a real doctrine but confusion or delusion, sent by God because of their sinfulness.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned/judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Next, realize that a physical Second coming is an addition to Scripture.

Jesus taught a Spiritual Second Coming in John 14:23 -

Ac 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

I understand that these thoughts will appear as heresy - but realize that what you think now is the real heresy.

The doctrines you have been taught build upon a so-called "Rapture Delusion" and they were introduced in the 1800s because of their sinfulness, not ours.

It is truly unprovable and ridiculous. We are not to build upon their confusion but to come out of it.

Look at the condition of the Churches that believe this nonsense - Do they look blessed to you? No they are not blessed they are cursed with confusion and delusion as the word says in 2 Thess 2:11.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.

Stop the continual reinforcement of these doctrines and study the word itself.

Old Time Delusion

Riding on a Cloud

 

[brmicke]

Keep reading further down (to v.10--using the SAME "sleep [G2518]" word as v.6!)... the same "us" is further down, here:

(and YES, in THIS context it is referring to unbelievers who are "spiritually unaware" [those who "sleep [G2518]"]--THIS CONTEXT here is not speaking of "death" like chpt 4 had been speaking of: "those who sleep [G2837, vv.13,14,15] through [/in] Jesus" [i.e. the saints who've died PRIOR to the time-slot being referenced]--DIFFERENT GRK WORD)


... but be mindful of the distinct CONTEXT here (in 1Th5):

"9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation [an eschatological 'salvation' per CONTEXT] through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, SO THAT, WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH [same Grk word as in v.6! G1127]
*OR* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same Grk word as in v.6! G2518 (not the different Grk word in 1Th4!)],
together WITH [G4862-UNIONed-with] Him we may live."



--"[so that] whether we might watch [G1127], OR whether we might sleep [G2518]" (same CONTEXT and same 2 Grk words as in v.6!!)

What large font you use!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Hi @brmicke ,

I find that many folks I've spoken with (over many years) seem to skim past verse 10 without giving much thought to what Paul is actually expressing there

(hence the large font FOR EMPHASIS, in my post, on that verse... same CONTEXT as v.6, and its use of the same two Grk words in vv.6 and 10).

 

[Genez]

There you go buddy. Get ready for a shock. I expect tears of joy and repentance after hearing the TRUTH of the matter.....

Adam And Eve... What really happened?

1st Adam vs. The 2nd Adam. They're more alike than you might think

Adam, Eve & Satan. Do you really think you know this story?

Deep Teaching On Adam & Eve. This is the stuff you're not supposed to hear

Did Adam Blame Eve? It's not what you may have thought

Eve Is Dying Right In Front of Adam. If you were Adam, what would you do?

May I rename you?
After one of the Mod Squad?

How you doing, Link?

I want to hear what you have to say....
There is a time and place for links.
But that is ridiculous...
It cuts everyone out of the dialogue.

grace and peace ...............

 

[Genez]

What large font you use!

Didn't you know?

Mr. Magoo is a member here.

 

[brmicke]

What large font you use!

One of the words means "Lie down" and the other means "to sleep".

This progression is like my Childhood prayer -

"Now I lay me down to sleep".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Before learning these new things you need to realize that the only Second Coming illustrated by Scripture is a spiritual one as is found in Acts 3:20 and Matt 14:23.

--where in Scripture does it speak of "Second Coming"?;


--what do you mean by Matthew 14:23, which says, "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone." Clue us in here, please. ;


--the verse after Acts 3:20 (your reference), in v.21 it says, "Whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the TIMES of restoration [G605] OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the MOUTH OF His holy prophets from the age." i.e. OT prophets / prophecies.
(In Acts 1, the disciples had just asked Jesus about the TIMING of one of those "things," when they asked Him [v.6], "Lord, wilt thou AT THIS TIME restore-again [G600] the kingdom to Israel?"--Jesus answers their question with words about its "timing", which was their question... not as to its nature which they correctly understood [See Matt19:28/Lk22:30 for starters...])

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are ignoring the summation of the conversation in 1Th 5:6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

No I am not. But it is not really relevant to what is being discussed. It is more about expecting the imminent return of Christ for his Bride.

 

[brmicke]

Heb 9:28 and Acts 3:20, John 14:23

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[brmicke]

--where in Scripture does it speak of "Second Coming"?;


--what do you mean by Matthew 14:23, which says, "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone." Clue us in here, please. ;


--the verse after Acts 3:20 (your reference), in v.21 it says, "Whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the TIMES of restoration [G605] OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the MOUTH OF His holy prophets from the age." i.e. OT prophets / prophecies.
(In Acts 1, the disciples had just asked Jesus about the TIMING of one of those "things," when they asked Him [v.6], "Lord, wilt thou AT THIS TIME restore-again [G600] the kingdom to Israel?"--Jesus answers their question with words about its "timing", which was their question... not as to its nature which they correctly understood [See Matt19:28/Lk22:30 for starters...])

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(KJV)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Before you can learn more you have to realize that the Rapture doctrine was introduced by people in the 1800's. It is not a real doctrine but confusion or delusion, sent by God because of their sinfulness.

The notion that this doctrine was only started in the 1800s has been thoroughly debunked on this discussion board.

The doctrines you have been taught build upon a so-called "Rapture Delusion" and they were introduced in the 1800s because of their sinfulness, not ours.

Sounds as though you are more familiar with the writings of man, than of the biblical doctrine (under present discussion).








[by the way, 2Th2:10-12 when "God shall send to them strong delusion SO THAT they should believe THE LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... that takes place in the future 7-year Trib period when the "man of sin" will also exist, doing all he is slated to DO during those 7 years; it is not referring to "the present time" as you suggest; When one grasps what "the FALSE CLAIM" is that Paul is referencing in 2Th2:2 ("[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative],"), one cannot possibly come to the conclusions you've been posting about]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The notion that this doctrine was only started in the 1800s has been thoroughly debunked on this discussion board.

Actually it was not but we did see by using multiple versions of the Bible [kjv] there was a way to ignore the facts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Actually it was not

Do you mean, "it was not debunked" ?

BTW, I wasn't speaking only of this THREAD.

but we did see by using multiple versions of the Bible [kjv]

What are you saying here, when you refer to "[by using] multiple versions of the Bible [kjv]..." ? Do you mean, instead of sticking with the "kjv"? Or what?

there was a way to ignore the facts.

The fact is, Paul is conveying (in 2Th2:1-2... two verses...verses 1 and 2--"we beseech you brethren, BY [G5228 huper/hyper]")... he's conveying the DISTINCTION BETWEEN "our Rapture" (a VERTICLE event--v.1) and the earthly-located TIME-PERIOD (of v.2--in the false claim he's cautioning them about--the claim that it "IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]"--It wasn't... Paul explains WHY it is not so [the false claim, that is])

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

^
It means we have the actual Disciples of John [Church Fathers] who never claim John meant what you claim. That's been discussed but only those who ""want"" to deny those facts still believe as you do.


And Paul was merely answering how we would see dead loved ones again. So he explained the Rapture to which some have distorted when it takes place when there's nowhere in the Bible that specifies that.

 

[brmicke]

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(KJV)

The restoration and restitution are the same thing and in both cases what is referred to is repentance

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see too many people disregarding the GRAMMAR of these two verses, when they start out reading the first part of v.3 ['that day'] they SKIP BACK PAST AND OVER v.2's referent... to MISTAKENLY grab v.1's distinct Subject [as if to EQUATE the two]... (the Subject PAUL is BRINGING TO BEAR on the "false claim" that the day of the Lord HAS ALREADY STARTED AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST [with results continuing into the present])

 

[cv5]

May I rename you?
After one of the Mod Squad?

How you doing, Link?

I want to hear what you have to say....
There is a time and place for links.
But that is ridiculous...
It cuts everyone out of the dialogue.

grace and peace ...............

Six hours of lectures are a burden you cannot bear?
Tragic.

Fortunately, I have heard all of those lectures. Several times over in fact.
Consequently, this phenomenon has become manifest....

Jhn 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Jhn 8:32
“And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Free of the vast ignorance so prevalent in the Church today.
Free of doubt. Free of error.

Thank You Lord!

 

[brmicke]

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Mt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
(KJV)

Heb 9:28