Total Depravity
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Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath.]
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right], like my servant Job.
The italicised words in [square brackets] are added in the English translation.
The sentences seem therefore ambiguous without context.
Do vv, 7 and 8 mean
7. And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for like my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that, like my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right].
Or do they mean -
7. And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for unlike my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that, unlike my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right].
I concede that God could be referring to all of Job's diatribes, but God's point may be this:
I have just rebuked Job for darkening counsel without knowledge, and he has repented in humility. But you three spoke just as foolishly as Job, and are just as guilty of slandering me as Job was. Job does not need to offer sacrifices on his own behalf, because he has seen me and he stands before me now justified by his present faith in Me. You three, however, have put your faith in a theological construct about me. According to your construct, I am a God who requires sacrifices for atonement to be offered by a righteous mediator; if you are going to judge others according your flawed construct, then live by it yourselves as well. Get righteous-by-faith Job to offer sacrifices on your behalf.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right], like my servant Job.
The italicised words in [square brackets] are added in the English translation.
The sentences seem therefore ambiguous without context.
Do vv, 7 and 8 mean
7. And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for like my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that, like my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right].
Or do they mean -
7. And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for unlike my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that, unlike my servant Job, ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is right].
I concede that God could be referring to all of Job's diatribes, but God's point may be this:
I have just rebuked Job for darkening counsel without knowledge, and he has repented in humility. But you three spoke just as foolishly as Job, and are just as guilty of slandering me as Job was. Job does not need to offer sacrifices on his own behalf, because he has seen me and he stands before me now justified by his present faith in Me. You three, however, have put your faith in a theological construct about me. According to your construct, I am a God who requires sacrifices for atonement to be offered by a righteous mediator; if you are going to judge others according your flawed construct, then live by it yourselves as well. Get righteous-by-faith Job to offer sacrifices on your behalf.
It costs nothing, people who leave Calvinism and are Christian speak about freedom.
And those who swing the sword of truth against Calvinism, TULIP, Augustinian philosophy, Canon of Dort etc., are doing a service to the church and believers.
Calling it CDS is a rather weak defense, easier that exegeting the scripture I guess.
And those who swing the sword of truth against Calvinism, TULIP, Augustinian philosophy, Canon of Dort etc., are doing a service to the church and believers.
Calling it CDS is a rather weak defense, easier that exegeting the scripture I guess.
In Job 1, when Job was victorious over satan's first attack, God stated In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly (Job 1:22).
In Job 2, satan wanted another chance to prove to God that Job would curse God if God would put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face (Job 2:5). In the prior challenge, God limited satan ... all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand (Job 1:12).
Beginning in chapter 2 satan wanted God to touch Job's body. God again granted satan access to Job ... and again limited satan he is in thine hand; but save his life (Job 2:6).
When Job was infested with painful boils from head to toe (Job 2:7) and his wife told him to curse God and die (Job 2:9), Job remained steadfast in faith and God tells us In all this did not Job sin with his lips (Job 2:10).
Job's friends, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar believed Job had sinned ... that he was hiding some secret sin that he needed to repent of. Job rejected the surmisings of his friends. Job suffered adversity ... not because he sinned ... but because satan attacked him ... and God allowed satan certain access. Job and his friends were not privy to the discussion between God and satan. We are aware and who of us would suffer as Job suffered and claim:
In Job 13:15, Job said Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him ...
In Job 19:25-27, Job said For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
In Job 23:10-12, Job said of God He knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
These are not the words of someone who is cursing God to His face ... as satan wanted Job to do.
In the end, Job had endured the onslaught of satan, the accusations of his friends who believed Job was hiding secret sin, the absence of his fellowship with God ... God concealed Himself from Job so there could be no accusation from satan that God had somehow sustained Job through his ordeal.
Look at the words of God in Ezekiel 14:
13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
19-20 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
You want me to believe that Job failed ... that satan had the victory ...
I'm not buying it PaulThomson.
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In Job 2, satan wanted another chance to prove to God that Job would curse God if God would put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face (Job 2:5). In the prior challenge, God limited satan ... all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand (Job 1:12).
Beginning in chapter 2 satan wanted God to touch Job's body. God again granted satan access to Job ... and again limited satan he is in thine hand; but save his life (Job 2:6).
When Job was infested with painful boils from head to toe (Job 2:7) and his wife told him to curse God and die (Job 2:9), Job remained steadfast in faith and God tells us In all this did not Job sin with his lips (Job 2:10).
Job's friends, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar believed Job had sinned ... that he was hiding some secret sin that he needed to repent of. Job rejected the surmisings of his friends. Job suffered adversity ... not because he sinned ... but because satan attacked him ... and God allowed satan certain access. Job and his friends were not privy to the discussion between God and satan. We are aware and who of us would suffer as Job suffered and claim:
In Job 13:15, Job said Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him ...
In Job 19:25-27, Job said For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
In Job 23:10-12, Job said of God He knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
These are not the words of someone who is cursing God to His face ... as satan wanted Job to do.
In the end, Job had endured the onslaught of satan, the accusations of his friends who believed Job was hiding secret sin, the absence of his fellowship with God ... God concealed Himself from Job so there could be no accusation from satan that God had somehow sustained Job through his ordeal.
Look at the words of God in Ezekiel 14:
13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
19-20 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
You want me to believe that Job failed ... that satan had the victory ...
I'm not buying it PaulThomson.
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Calling people Calvinists who are not is rather a pitiful tack to take yet you do it often.
But it is easier for you to do that than accept what the Bible actually teaches about the natural man.
And it is certainly easier for you to call people names that do not fit than accept the fact
that you read things into Scripture that are not there at all while denying what actually is.
But it is easier for you to do that than accept what the Bible actually teaches about the natural man.
And it is certainly easier for you to call people names that do not fit than accept the fact
that you read things into Scripture that are not there at all while denying what actually is.
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Man if outside of God applying his power of grace, would be dominated by the depravity of his flesh over our souls.
In that sense we are born to be depraved,
Yet... when grace makes itself known by God in controlling the flesh, allowing the soul to think free of the sin nature?
Then the soul is freed up from the dominance of the fallen nature found in the flesh...
And, in that way?
Man, by means of grace, has his soul made able to choose either for, or against God....
That is why... by grace we have been saved.
Without grace?
No one can be saved!
Now, if the human soul were innately depraved?
Then, grace would do no good.
And, man would truly be totally depraved!
........ grace and peace
In that sense we are born to be depraved,
Yet... when grace makes itself known by God in controlling the flesh, allowing the soul to think free of the sin nature?
Then the soul is freed up from the dominance of the fallen nature found in the flesh...
And, in that way?
Man, by means of grace, has his soul made able to choose either for, or against God....
That is why... by grace we have been saved.
Without grace?
No one can be saved!
Now, if the human soul were innately depraved?
Then, grace would do no good.
And, man would truly be totally depraved!
........ grace and peace
I have not said Job failed, or that job cursed God.
But Job did go through a radical overhaul of his own theology. He was originally of the hope that God would bless those who kept Him appeased, and he feared that God could choose to bring calamity upon those with whom He was not adequately pleased. That is why he offered sacrifices weekly, and when his world collapsed, lamented that what he had feared had come upon him. It is quite possible that his theology was not much unlike that of his friends. But he discovered that honoring God and sacrificing to Him was not the insurance against calamity he had imagined. This cognitive dissonance is what he was struggling with for 42 chapters. He certainly held some correct theological opinions such as his being ultimately resurrected and acquitted for trusting God. but he did have some quite erroneous views as well.
He believed it was God afflicting him.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are in me. My spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me. Also 7:17-21; 16:7-9, 11-14; 17:6; 19:6-12; 31:19
He attributed his nightmares to God. 7:12-16
Job was somewhat Augustinian/calvinistic before and during his ordeal. 9:16-24; 10:3-9, 13, 16-17; 12:9-10, 17-25; 13:26-27; 14:4, 19; 23:13-16
Job criticises God for not taking action against the oppressors and not acting on the cries of the victims 24:12, 21-23
Job is being shaken free of his presuppositions about God and how He should/could operate. God is not necessarily as we imagine Him to be. And judging God against our imaginations of what a good God should do is foolishness. Job speaks rightly and repents for doing so in the end and makes no sacrifice for himself, because his present faith in God is reckoned to him as present righteousness.
His friends, who have judged Job according to their own imaginations of how a good God would behave towards a good man vs and evil man, don't yet understand as Job does and need Job's intercession on their behalf, because their faith is in only a false theological construct of God.
But Job did go through a radical overhaul of his own theology. He was originally of the hope that God would bless those who kept Him appeased, and he feared that God could choose to bring calamity upon those with whom He was not adequately pleased. That is why he offered sacrifices weekly, and when his world collapsed, lamented that what he had feared had come upon him. It is quite possible that his theology was not much unlike that of his friends. But he discovered that honoring God and sacrificing to Him was not the insurance against calamity he had imagined. This cognitive dissonance is what he was struggling with for 42 chapters. He certainly held some correct theological opinions such as his being ultimately resurrected and acquitted for trusting God. but he did have some quite erroneous views as well.
He believed it was God afflicting him.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are in me. My spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me. Also 7:17-21; 16:7-9, 11-14; 17:6; 19:6-12; 31:19
He attributed his nightmares to God. 7:12-16
Job was somewhat Augustinian/calvinistic before and during his ordeal. 9:16-24; 10:3-9, 13, 16-17; 12:9-10, 17-25; 13:26-27; 14:4, 19; 23:13-16
Job criticises God for not taking action against the oppressors and not acting on the cries of the victims 24:12, 21-23
Job is being shaken free of his presuppositions about God and how He should/could operate. God is not necessarily as we imagine Him to be. And judging God against our imaginations of what a good God should do is foolishness. Job speaks rightly and repents for doing so in the end and makes no sacrifice for himself, because his present faith in God is reckoned to him as present righteousness.
His friends, who have judged Job according to their own imaginations of how a good God would behave towards a good man vs and evil man, don't yet understand as Job does and need Job's intercession on their behalf, because their faith is in only a false theological construct of God.
If Job cursed God?
He would have been doing Satan a favor.
For when Satan rebelled.... and God disciplined him as a son?
Lucifer was made to hurt!
The result?
Did Lucifer repent and return to his senses?
Nope.... Satan refused and cursed the Lord to his face!
And, has been out to prove that if anyone was made to suffer like he was made to suffer under the Lord's discipline?
That any one... someone like Job, would do the same thing!
In the end? The Lord stood vindicated.
Satan is the loser.
And, God blessed Job more so than before!
That is why Satan requested to make Job suffer.
He would have been doing Satan a favor.
For when Satan rebelled.... and God disciplined him as a son?
Lucifer was made to hurt!
The result?
Did Lucifer repent and return to his senses?
Nope.... Satan refused and cursed the Lord to his face!
And, has been out to prove that if anyone was made to suffer like he was made to suffer under the Lord's discipline?
That any one... someone like Job, would do the same thing!
In the end? The Lord stood vindicated.
Satan is the loser.
And, God blessed Job more so than before!
That is why Satan requested to make Job suffer.
You have a total misunderstanding of Job, and you have even contradicted what God had to say about Job. "Appeasement" is foreign to those who love and serve God. That is a pagan concept.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed [shunned] evil. (Job 1:1) This is how God viewed Job, and in Ezekiel God saw only three righteous men -- Noah, Daniel, and Job (Ezek 14:14). Job was a godly and righteous man even though he was extremely wealthy. He feared for his children, so he sacrificed for them. "...for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."
Did the calamities which came upon Job disturb him? Absolutely. If you had experienced those calamities, you would also have had great anguish in your soul. If you have not had everything thrown at you, you have no idea of this. But God was going to teach Job some valuable lessons, and eventually restore to him far more than he had originally.
Job's friends did not know that the righteous do suffer on earth, while the wicked flourish. But the New Testament teaches this.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed [shunned] evil. (Job 1:1) This is how God viewed Job, and in Ezekiel God saw only three righteous men -- Noah, Daniel, and Job (Ezek 14:14). Job was a godly and righteous man even though he was extremely wealthy. He feared for his children, so he sacrificed for them. "...for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."
Did the calamities which came upon Job disturb him? Absolutely. If you had experienced those calamities, you would also have had great anguish in your soul. If you have not had everything thrown at you, you have no idea of this. But God was going to teach Job some valuable lessons, and eventually restore to him far more than he had originally.
Job's friends did not know that the righteous do suffer on earth, while the wicked flourish. But the New Testament teaches this.
No. God did not rebuke Job for questioning Him. He rebuked Job for judging Him without having the requisite knowledge to make a reasonable judgment.
The less we know, the less we realise we don't know, and the more certain we are in our judgments. The more we know, the more we realise we don't know, and the less strident and certain we are in our judgments. Job knew so little, and yet was so certain of his ability to judge the situation correctly.
The less we know, the less we realise we don't know, and the more certain we are in our judgments. The more we know, the more we realise we don't know, and the less strident and certain we are in our judgments. Job knew so little, and yet was so certain of his ability to judge the situation correctly.
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Despite what Job was not told before Satan attacked him, we are told that we are living in the midst of invisible hateful enemies capable of doing us tremendous harm. But we have also been armed with spiritual weaponry to defend ourselves and push back against the true enemy.
If the book is actual history and not fiction, it is possible that Job did learn about the Yahweh - Satan dimension to his ordeal. It is possible that Job read the book bearing his name, which was probably written during his remaining years which were many by an eye-witness of his ordeal, probably Elihu. .
If the book is actual history and not fiction, it is possible that Job did learn about the Yahweh - Satan dimension to his ordeal. It is possible that Job read the book bearing his name, which was probably written during his remaining years which were many by an eye-witness of his ordeal, probably Elihu. .
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Job had been receiving God's approval. He was not conscious of spiritual weaponry like the Church knows.
For, without being aware of it, Job had a wall placed around him placed by God for protection from the evil haters.
"You are like a wall protecting not only him, but his entire family and all his property.
You make him successful in whatever he does, and his flocks and herds are everywhere." Job 1:10
For, without being aware of it, Job had a wall placed around him placed by God for protection from the evil haters.
"You are like a wall protecting not only him, but his entire family and all his property.
You make him successful in whatever he does, and his flocks and herds are everywhere." Job 1:10
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