What do you think of the New Wine Pentecost?

[Radius]

First off, thank you for taking the time to watch the video, I thought he makes things interesting so I hope it wasn't too much a chore. But he lays it out better than I can.

You answered your questions for number 1, so we'll move on in order:

2) he talks about how "wine" ( = "70") is the Hebrew word "yayin" H3196 (and that the word "secret" also equals "70"), but I find that when I look up the Hebrew word for "new wine," it's a completely different word--H8492 "tîrôš " (so, unless this also equals "70," it seems his point is not as tight here);

I believe he was suggesting just the word "wine" not "new wine" equals 70 using the Hebrew form of the word coupled with Hebrew gematria--not Strong's.

3) biblically, what he is calling "Shavuot" (and traditional Pentecost) always falls on a Sunday (the 50th day FROM Firstfruit [Jesus' Resurrection Day and when the John 20:17 ascension took place (the video-maker seems to agree here)]); not FROM Passover (the 14th, or 15th... whichever);
so that Firstfruit also always falls on a Sunday: "on the morrow after the sabbath" following Passover (that's "Firstfruit"=always on a Sunday), Lev23:10-12;
Shavuot is then counted "50 days" FROM THAT day (so always falls on a Sunday as well) "seven sabbaths shall be complete" and then it says, "Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days" (this should fall on a Sunday, when counted FROM Firstfruit--I'm not sure the video-maker does this);

I don't understand this question. He makes the case that Shavuot is 50 days from the sabbath after Passover. and then New Wine is the second 50 day count after that.

4) later in the video, he seems to say (correct me if I'm mistaken) that both "Shavuot" and what he is calling the New Wine feast [/Pentecost, according to him] BOTH fall on a FULL MOON (I think he was saying)... but do they / would they?? I'm not seeing it!
Then it seems like he's saying that Shavuot fell on June 21[??], but it didn't... it fell on June 16 (Sun--see my two posts at LINK above), 50 days after "Firstfruit" (not 50 days after "Passover" [day 1 of]);
Then he says that [his idea of] the New Wine feast (he's calling Pentecost) would fall on (in his view) Aug 12/13/14 [around Av 8] (and says that's a full moon too?? but it isn't--the full moon is closer to Aug 19)... So I guess I either misunderstood him, or that his "count" is not as precise as it should be (which is often what I find when I view videos like these);

He doesn't think New Wine falls on a full moon. But Shavuot (not the same as new wine) does.

5) Acts 1:5 says, "not long after these days" (Grk phrasing)... I guess I'm not really seeing how "a COUNT OF FIFTY DAYS" that led up to this day Shavuot (the day He supposedly said this phrase in Acts 1) is supposed to refer to "another [count of] 50 days" (it doesn't seem to jive: "not long AFTER THESE DAYS" [the ones you just "counted"] supposedly EQUALING "another 50-day-count");

There was Shavuot, and then 50 days later was when Moses came down with the tablets of stone (that he smashed.) In the Septuagint, when Moses was coming down he said "...It is not the voice of them that begin the battle, nor the voice of them that begin the cry of defeat, but the voice of them that begin the banquet of wine do I hear. " -- This is the second 50 day count after Shavuot.

All the way to when they arrive to Mount Sinai which would be the Feast of Weeks (the the 15th day of the third month) there's a very clear day count from that time that goes another 50 days straight to the time of new wine In order to get this understanding you have to read from Exodus chapter 24 all the way to Exodus chapter 32 it's a lot of reading you have to put a lot together but it's very precise and clear.

6) then there's the issues I see in your latest post not seeming to correspond with the points he actually made in his post (unless I'm either missing his points, or misunderstanding yours... lol)

Sorry maybe I misspoke, please elaborate =)

 

[Radius]

First Fruits is the day Christ rose, 3 days after Pascha.

Shavuot is the giving of the Torah at Sinai, and has a number of parallels to Acts 2

I don't see many parallels of Shavuot to Acts 2 Pentecost, sorry. Feel free to explain how you do, though.

 

[posthuman]

I don't see many parallels of Shavuot to Acts 2 Pentecost, sorry. Feel free to explain how you do, though.

Leviticus 23:17​

You shall bring from your dwellings two wave [loaves] of two-tenths [of an ephah.] They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. [They are] the firstfruits to the LORD.​

​

two waved grains, as wheat and tares.
leavened. these are an image of the church.

the day after seven sevens are completed, counting from the beginning. this speaks of the end of the ages, the image of the creation week, of the resurrection and eternity. the church. Salvation.

the Law was given on a mountain, Sinai, with fire and voices, to the man of God in an upper place, 50 days after passover. In judgement 3,000 were slain, and the tablets broken. The Spirit was given on a mountain, Zion, with fire and voices, in an upper room, 50 days after passover. In mercy 3,000 were saved, and the power of the tablets broken


the 50th is what Acts 2 says is the day.
the scriptures speak of this day, the feast of weeks, as the 50th.
there is no good reason to look to extra-Biblical human tradition to try to explain this when the God's word itself is extremely clear.

unless what someone is trying to do is sell books, lol

 

[NightTwister]

waiting for a rebuttal for the points made in the video....i'll be long gone before that happens though, I already know it.

Hmmm... seems you're still here.

 

[SomeDisciple]

This is a really interesting topic; but I can't see how the timing works.

Acts 1 starts off saying Jesus appeared to them for 40 days after his suffering, he told them they would receive the Holy Spirit not many days hence... Acts 2 is probably referring to 50 days after Jesus' suffering; which would line up with shavuot, right?

Why would the 50 days referred to in acts 2 mean "50 days from shavuot"?

 

[SomeDisciple]

Wait; is he saying that Acts 2 is taking place 50 days after the events of acts 1 (where the events of acts 1 is an isolated incident after the initial 40 days)? I guess that could make sense. Maybe.

 

[SomeDisciple]

the Law was given on a mountain, Sinai, with fire and voices, to the man of God in an upper place, 50 days after passover. In judgement 3,000 were slain, and the tablets broken.

Just to be berean- the video guy makes a good point. The law (covenant) was actually given from a scroll first- and the blood of the covenant was given before Moses went back up the mountain to get the stone tablets- at least 40 days before moses came down with the tablets and the 3000 were killed.

-2 months and 1 day after the first passover is when Moses first meets the Lord on Sinai.
-Moses consecrates the people for 2 days.
-Moses read the law and sprinkled the blood of the covenant the third day.
-he went back up the mountain, and God called for Moses 6 days after that.
-Moses remained on the mountain for 40 days. (not sure if the 40 days includes the previous 6 he was on the mountain).
-Moses comes down with the tablets.

61+2+1+(6?)+40= 104-110 days after the first Passover- this would be roughly 50 days after shavout/"pentecost".

 

[Radius]

Just to be berean- the video guy makes a good point. The law (covenant) was actually given from a scroll first- and the blood of the covenant was given before Moses went back up the mountain to get the stone tablets- at least 40 days before moses came down with the tablets and the 3000 were killed.

-2 months and 1 day after the first passover is when Moses first meets the Lord on Sinai.
-Moses consecrates the people for 2 days.
-Moses read the law and sprinkled the blood of the covenant the third day.
-he went back up the mountain, and God called for Moses 6 days after that.
-Moses remained on the mountain for 40 days. (not sure if the 40 days includes the previous 6 he was on the mountain).
-Moses comes down with the tablets.

61+2+1+(6?)+40= 104-110 days after the first Passover- this would be roughly 50 days after shavout/"pentecost".

Bingo!
When Moses came down with the tablets, God was essentially going to "marry" the Israelites. Moses first came down and asked them if they would be a Holy people unto the LORD (In Exodus 19, God proposes a covenant with the Israelites, asking them to be a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation." The Israelites agree to this covenant (Exodus 19:8). This was Shavout.

And they replied yes to Moses, and so Moses went back up the mountain for 7 and 40 days (and don't forget Exodus 19:10-11 where God instructs Moses to have the people prepare for three days and to wash their clothes and consecrate themselves--this makes the 50 day count.)

When Moses came back down with the marriage covenant it was going to coincide with the Banquet of Wine that they celebrated. In the Septuagint, as Moses was coming back down to celebrate the "marriage" between God and His people it reads like this:

"And Joshua having heard the voice of the people crying, says to Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18And Moses says, It is not the voice of them that begin the battle, nor the voice of them that begin the cry of defeat, but the voice of them that begin the banquet of wine do I hear."

Ex.32:17-18, Septuagint

They were going to celebrate, much like weddings in Galilee were celebrated--with new wine.

 

[Radius]

If we accept New Wine is 50 days after Shavuot, we can now piece together that Pentecost was also NOT on Shavuot, but rather at the time of New Wine.

Scripture proves it. Read on.

The men in the upper room in Acts 2 were accused of being "drunk on New Wine." The Holy Spirit was poured out like an intoxicating beverage on the apostles, just as the high priest was pouring out the New Wine on the altar to consecrate it--at the 3rd hour. The Dead Sea Scrolls claim that the high priest poured New Wine out at the third hour, just as the Holy Spirit came upon the men at the 3rd hour.

That is why the men said, how can we be drunk on new wine being that it is the 3rd hour of the day (when they were speaking in tongues). This would prove to the bystanders that in fact they couldn't be drunk on new wine because that is at the same hour the priest would have been consecrating it.

It fits like glove, people.

 

[posthuman]

They left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month.
They were at Sinai on the first day of the third month, Exodus 19:1, when Moses went up the mountain and spoke to God.
Leitical months are 30 days long.
That's 45 days.
God told Moses to go back down and have the people consecrate themselves and be ready for the 3rd day.
That's 48 days
On that day there was fire, and voices, and the LORD came down onto the mountain.
Moses went up and spoke to Christ, then went back down and spoke to the people, giving them the decalogue.

If he takes a day going up and speaking with God - the sabbath - and a day going back down - the day after sabbath - the people heard the Covenant, the decalogue, on the 50th day after Pascha.

 

[posthuman]

For as of For as of old, when the Hebrew nation were released from the Egyptians, on the fiftieth day after the sacrificing of the lamb the Law was given on Mount Sinai, so after the suffering of Christ, wherein the true Lamb of God was slain, on the fiftieth day from His Resurrection, the Holy Ghost came down upon the Apostles and the multitude of believers, so that the earnest Christian may easily perceive that the beginnings of the Old Testament were preparatory to the beginnings of the Gospel, and that the second covenant was founded by the same Spirit that had instituted the first., when the Hebrew nation were released from the Egyptians, on the fiftieth day after the sacrificing of the lamb the Law was given on Mount Sinai, so after the suffering of Christ, wherein the true Lamb of God was slain, on the fiftieth day from His Resurrection, the Holy Ghost came down upon the Apostles and the multitude of believers, so that the earnest Christian may easily perceive that the beginnings of the Old Testament were preparatory to the beginnings of the Gospel, and that the second covenant was founded by the same Spirit that had instituted the first.​

Leo, sermon 75, 7th century​

this has been the understanding of the timeline since the beginning of the church, even when it was antisemitic.
.

 

[ResidentAlien]

https://www.raptureready.com/2023/07/25/is-the-feast-of-new-wine-pentecost-by-randy-nettles/

 

[Radius]

They left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month.
They were at Sinai on the first day of the third month, Exodus 19:1, when Moses went up the mountain and spoke to God.
Leitical months are 30 days long.
That's 45 days.
God told Moses to go back down and have the people consecrate themselves and be ready for the 3rd day.
That's 48 days
On that day there was fire, and voices, and the LORD came down onto the mountain.
Moses went up and spoke to Christ, then went back down and spoke to the people, giving them the decalogue.

If he takes a day going up and speaking with God - the sabbath - and a day going back down - the day after sabbath - the people heard the Covenant, the decalogue, on the 50th day after Pascha.

Brother, you are referring to the first 50 days after passover when God descends and gave the law and the people were screaming don't let God talk to us, you (Moses) go up and talk to him. There is NO stone tablet in Ex. 19 that you showed. NONE! That is Shavuot. 15th Day of the 3rd Month.

BUT......You forget the next time he goes up! And here's why:

After Ex. 19, you get 3 chapter of the law, and this is where Christians go kicking and screaming and saying "that's not for us!" and lose interest or lose track of what's happening. And those three chapters of the law causes most to miss Exodus 24 (NOTE: Exodus 24: 1-8 is still Shavot!) when Moses goes up again w/ the 70 elders (Exodus 24:9) ..... and then there's 7 chapter of more law until we get to chapter 32 (when he comes back down with the tablets -- remember, on Shavout (Ex. 19) there was NO tablets of stone!).

Moses goes away (up the mountain) for 40 days (after Shavuot) PLUS 7 days (cloud covering the mountain for 6 days, called up on the 7th - Exodus. 24:16) bringing us to the Month of Av (new wine). He came down with the marriage covenant to celebrate on the feast of wine (alluded to in the Septuagint), but that got spoiled with the golden calf and 3000 died that day (mirroring what I believe to be Pentecost at new wine where 3000 were saved in the upper room)

The typology is perfect!

 

[Radius]

https://www.raptureready.com/2023/07/25/is-the-feast-of-new-wine-pentecost-by-randy-nettles/

Look at my last post. Dead Sea Scrolls NOT even mentioned or needed. The DSS are only there to verify what is written in the Bible.

 

[Radius]

https://www.raptureready.com/2023/07/25/is-the-feast-of-new-wine-pentecost-by-randy-nettles/

so you go on a witch hunt to fulfill your confirmation bias and take what Mr. Nettles says as gospel while shunning Dr. Barry Awe's research and without doing a hint of your own.

Great!

 

[Radius]

Here resident Alien. Learn something new:

 

[posthuman]

There is NO stone tablet in Ex. 19 that you showed. NONE!

There is no written new testament when Pentecost takes place. None!

 

[Radius]

There is no written new testament when Pentecost takes place. None!

Is this your response to everything I wrote?

Why don't you try again addressing my points. Read carefully, please.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The typology is perfect!

Perfect as a S-T-R-E-T-C-H. There is no "marriage covenant" in Exodus.

 

[Radius]

Perfect as a S-T-R-E-T-C-H. There is no "marriage covenant" in Exodus.

I wonder why.

There was going to be one and it was going to coincide with the feast of wine. Moses was coming down with the "ketubah" but they already committed spiritual adultery with the golden calf while he was on the mountain.

The wedding was OFF, giving birth to the 9th of Av.