Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

Active member
#153,601
Jul 1, 2021
338
175
43
#153,601
PennEd said:
All man’s reasoning trying to understand the Mind and Motives of God.

Why do some hear and not believe and why did YOU believe?

Are you a better, more moral, smarter person than they?

Or is it because Gid gave you the faith necessary to believe?

Which is it?
Click to expand...
The bible says that God's grace has appeared to ALL MEN, some respond to it, some reject it. God gives grace unto the humble but resisteth the proud.

Was I smarter or a more moral person? Probably not smarter, I haven't gone past 9th grade in education and I dont value education at all, more moral? Perhaps because I was raised well and taught good morals, but the morality does not save me. There are many unsaved people who are 'moral' in a sense, many muslims I would argue have better morals than many sunday Christians, yet they aren't saved.

Why did I believe? That is a great question to which I can only give the reply of: because i was sorry about all the things that ive done wrong and wanted to be forgiven by God. I wanted to be in communion with God and reunite with God's people in the resurrection.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#153,602
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#153,602
Hakawaka said:
The bible says that God's grace has appeared to ALL MEN, some respond to it, some reject it. God gives grace unto the humble but resisteth the proud.

Was I smarter or a more moral person? Probably not smarter, I haven't gone past 9th grade in education and I dont value education at all, more moral? Perhaps because I was raised well and taught good morals, but the morality does not save me. There are many unsaved people who are 'moral' in a sense, many muslims I would argue have better morals than many sunday Christians, yet they aren't saved.

Why did I believe? That is a great question to which I can only give the reply of: because i was sorry about all the things that ive done wrong and wanted to be forgiven by God. I wanted to be in communion with God and reunite with God's people in the resurrection.
Click to expand...

This is a tactic, put you on the defensive, in a feeble attempt to defend the un-biblical position that people cannot believe or place their faith in or trust the words of Gospel message.

"You couldn't possibly have believed on your own, how did you muster faith or belief?"
If you go to web sites where they defend the Calvinist system of salvation you will see this word "muster" used a lot, it is loaded language put you on the defensive.

You heard the Gospel message, you were persuaded (heart and mind) and you placed your trust in God for the gift of salvation ... it was personal moment between you and God.

Trying to understand why you believed and someone else does not, is a fool's errand ... there are infinite number of reasons.

I just do not think you need to justify yourself. Scripture nowhere supports this soteriology of God choosing some for redemption and leaving others in their sin.

Nowhere does scripture state that all people of all time are born morally incapable of responding to the Gospel message.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#153,604
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,298
113
#153,604
PennEd said:
Nope.

It's a question that strikes a nerve.

WHY, don't others believe that hear that the Gospel?

What makes YOU better than they?

Pinches a bit don't it?
Click to expand...
Some are convinced they needed no help whatsoever to come to believe in God.

Their attitude has self-righteousness solidly built into it... though they seem blind to it.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#153,605
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#153,605
Magenta said:
Some are convinced they needed no help whatsoever to come to believe in God.

Their attitude has self-righteousness solidly built into it... though they seem blind to it.
Click to expand...
It absolutely does.

They appear blinded by a type of pride. This is the last hurdle to come to the end of yourself. It may end up being more important than we can imagine.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

Active member
#153,606
Jul 1, 2021
338
175
43
#153,606
Magenta said:
Some are convinced they needed no help whatsoever to come to believe in God.

Their attitude has self-righteousness solidly built into it... though they seem blind to it.
Click to expand...
Why do you keep saying it. The Bible teaches that God's grace has appeared to every man. What is this need no help whatsoever from God?
God's grace is here, hows that not help? The Holy Spirit is here convicting the world of SIN, because they believe not on HIM(Jesus)
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#153,607
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,298
113
#153,607
Hakawaka said:
Why do you keep saying it. The Bible teaches that God's grace has appeared to every man. What is this need no help whatsoever from God?
God's grace is here, hows that not help? The Holy Spirit is here convicting the world of SIN, because they believe not on HIM(Jesus)
Click to expand...
Why don't you ask those with that attitude? Perhaps they can tell you.

I find it a ridiculous thing for them to say. also.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#153,609
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,298
113
#153,609
Hakawaka said:
But i've never seen anyone here say God's grace HASNT appeared to all men or isnt needed
Click to expand...
Gosh. Is that the only way they could say such a thing? No, it is not.

And where have you been the last three years??? Do you think you have
seen everything everyone has said even since you've returned to posting?
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#153,610
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#153,610
Hakawaka said:
But i've never seen anyone here say God's grace HASNT appeared to all men or isnt needed
Click to expand...
Calvinists must read between the lines of the hearts that don't follow the Calvinist logic.

"Those non-Calvinists must be full of pride to not agree with Calvinism!"

You ever met a person who accepted the Calvinist logic who did not also claim to be among the chosen few?

You will not.

What a shock.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

Active member
#153,611
Jul 1, 2021
338
175
43
#153,611
Magenta said:
Gosh. Is that the only way they could say such a thing? No, it is not.

And where have you been the last three years??? Do you think you have
seen everything everyone has said even since you've returned to posting?
Click to expand...
Obviously they don't have to verbally say that, but I havent even seen the concept brought up. WHO is teaching we dont need God's grace to be saved, who is it? Where when who what?
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#153,612
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
#153,612
Hakawaka said:
Obviously they don't have to verbally say that, but I havent even seen the concept brought up. WHO is teaching we dont need God's grace to be saved, who is it? Where when who what?
Click to expand...
Anyone who says salvation can be lost.. They reject gtace and replace it with works. They must do some kind of work to earn or maintain salvation

anyone who thinks they can just say some prayer and magically they are saved, and can live however they want, they turn the grace of God to licentiousness..

They were declair and say they need Gods grace, but the reality is, they reject it
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#153,614
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#153,614
notmyown said:
no, it doesn't.
Click to expand...
This is where he is getting it from:
Titus 2:11-3:9
New King James Version
Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


But the very CORE of the issue, that has remained unanswered, is if the Grace that brings salvation appeared to all men is true, and it OBVIOUSLY is, WHY haven't ALL men accepted Him?

" Well I repented, heard the Gospel, humbled myself, confessed my need for Him, and accepted Him"

Great!!

Why did YOU do that and Joe Schmo, hearing the SAME Gospel, refuse Him?

ARE YOU BETTER, MORE MORAL, SMARTER, MORE HUMBLE THAN JOE SCHMO?

Or is rather because God intervened on YOUR behalf?
 
notmyown

notmyown

Senior Member
#153,615
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,273
113
#153,615
PennEd said:
This is where he is getting it from:
Titus 2:11-3:9
New King James Version
Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


But the very CORE of the issue, that has remained unanswered, is if the Grace that brings salvation appeared to all men is true, and it OBVIOUSLY is, WHY haven't ALL men accepted Him?

" Well I repented, heard the Gospel, humbled myself, confessed my need for Him, and accepted Him"

Great!!

Why did YOU do that and Joe Schmo, hearing the SAME Gospel, refuse Him?

ARE YOU BETTER, MORE MORAL, SMARTER, MORE HUMBLE THAN JOE SCHMO?

Or is rather because God intervened on YOUR behalf?
Click to expand...
thank you, Ed! i don't, in general, read the KJV. in the case of Titus 2:11, i think it's a bit... dare i say... wrong. lol

nearly every other translation i can find says, For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

so, as you so adeptly pointed out, if "ALL means ALL and that's ALL ALL means!", we must, perforce, become universalists.

however, the Greek word pás there doesn't mean every single body who has ever lived. here's a bit from HELPS word studies:

pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." even James Strong says it means, "all, the whole, every kind of"

no, God must act first. we're unwilling to come to Christ, which we would know if we read past John 3:16 to what follows. we have to be DRAGGED! :D
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#153,616
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
#153,616
The grace of God that brings salvation is the cross. All men is like the world in John 3:16. It refers to all people groups, not all people.
Salvation was formerly almost exclusively for Jews before the cross. NT writers were eager to make it known that salvation was now open to all the nations. And this was always God's plan, as heaven is populated by people of every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue.
 
Hakawaka

Hakawaka

Active member
#153,617
Jul 1, 2021
338
175
43
#153,617
notmyown said:
no, it doesn't.
Click to expand...
Oh sure it does:

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

And you better believe it buddy. It has appeared to everyone and not everyone will be saved even though God WANTS everyone to be saved as the new testament clearly teaches (2 peter 3:9, 1 tim 2:4)

WHY NOT? Because not all believe the gospel? WHY NOT? because they reject the grace of God just like the israelites did in the wilderness and just like the pharisees rejected God's will for them (Luke 7:30) not being baptized by John. Why do men reject? Because their deeds were evil, so they don't want to come into the light. The ones who humble themselves and repent will be saved. As it says: God will exalt the humble.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#153,618
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#153,618
Cameron143 said:
The grace of God that brings salvation is the cross. All men is like the world in John 3:16. It refers to all people groups, not all people.
Salvation was formerly almost exclusively for Jews before the cross. NT writers were eager to make it known that salvation was now open to all the nations. And this was always God's plan, as heaven is populated by people of every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue.
Click to expand...
This interpretation does seem to make sense. Especially in light of the citadel of the "men determine if they get saved or not" doctrine, which is 2 Peter 3:9.

I mean there are a multitude of passages that say God is sovereign in who will become His.

It seems to me that if God is not willing for something to happen, then that something aint happening!
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#153,619
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#153,619
Hakawaka said:
And you better believe it buddy. It has appeared to everyone and not everyone will be saved even though God WANTS everyone to be saved as the new testament clearly teaches (2 peter 3:9, 1 tim 2:4)
Click to expand...
Well, this passage seems pretty clear to me. Wondering what you do with it.

ROMANS 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Tough verses for sure.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#153,620
Oct 24, 2012
16,723
554
113
#153,620
PennEd said:
Well, this passage seems pretty clear to me. Wondering what you do with it.

ROMANS 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Tough verses for sure.
Click to expand...
‘it is all God, Jesus testified to this. Why call me good to that rich man in Matt 19. Only my Father is good. The. mysteries of God. Where later we read the two as One (won) for us to be given the gift in risen Son to us that will not quit belief to this done work for them to be one with them as won (One)
the mystery of marriage, deeper that a man and a woman marrying and having kids. Much deeper
 
You must log in or register to reply here.