Total Depravity

[TMS]

Slaves can't set themselves free.
Your message is a little convoluted. On the one hand you have people freeing themselves. On the other hand, in the example you give, God has to free them. Which is it?

Oh
In simple terms

We are slaves... we can not free ourselves.... we are stuck and all our efforts will fail....

But God offers us a way to be free.
GOD GAVE US HIS SON. Jesus came to set us free.

We have to make a choice. Will we by faith except the gift of salvation or will we stay slaves to sin.

Can you see the choice we are able make.
When love is shown to us and we see the difference between what Jesus offers and what the world offers. When we choose to ALLOW Jesus to help us, our hearts are changed.

We need to tell the world about the cure, about the freedom that Jesus wants to give us.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

If it is already decided why are we told to teach ALL.

 

[Genez]

Making metaphysical assertions without scriptural support is not persuasive.

What scripture says God is already present in the future?

Read the book of Revelation?
God is telling us what was to be as if it were being.
He already knows the future.

 

[PaulThomson]

Read the book of Revelation?
God is telling us what was to be as if it were being.
He already knows the future.

Scripture shows that God already knows some of the future. And scripture says He is able to predict some future events is because He has the power to make His predictions happen.

Isaiah 46:11 New King James Version (NKJV)Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

He is not predicting a future that already exists. He is predicting a future event He will bring into existence.

 

[Genez]

Oh
In simple terms

We are slaves... we can not free ourselves.... we are stuck and all our efforts will fail....

But God offers us a way to be free.
GOD GAVE US HIS SON. Jesus came to set us free.

The Cross was the price to purchase a slave.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom ​

you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. ​

Therefore honor God with your bodies." 1 Corinthians 6:19-20​

Most of the Jews in the Exodus remained slaves to their slave mentality as shown
in that as to why many died off in the wilderness.

What makes us free after being freed from slavery is God's power of Grace -
The enabling power of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us. If! We learn to walk
in the Spirit.

Under the Law Jews were not free of slavery. They simply found a benevolent master
to watch over them and to allow them blessing and autonomy as long as they followed
and abided under the Law.

grace and peace ..............

 

[PaulThomson]

Who me? Is trying to persuade you?

That's the Holy Spirit's job.

Correct. And He uses scripture derived from Hebrew culture, not metaphysical claims derived from the Greeks.

 

[Genez]

Scripture shows that God already knows some of the future. And scripture says He is able to predict some future events is because He has the power to make His predictions happen.

Isaiah 46:11 New King James Version (NKJV)Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

He is not predicting a future that already exists. He is predicting a future event He will bring into existence.

God is not limited as you are limited....

 

[TMS]

Sheep and goats

It was a parable... don't loose sight of the big picture...

The question no has answered for me is...

Does God force us to love Him. ?
Does God force us to be saved?

Can we choose to remain a slave to sin if we want to? VS choosing to accepting salvation?

 

[Genez]

Correct. And He uses scripture derived from Hebrew culture, not metaphysical claims derived from the Greeks.

Better not read Paul in the Greek text then.
He copped many a Greek concept and even used their terminology to reveal how God works in us.....
If, He in fact, is able to work in us.

 

[TMS]

The Cross was the price to purchase a slave.

Amen and as a result we can be free.

Most of the Jews in the wilderness were looking back and desiring the things of Egypt.. we to can fail to look at heaven...

Mat 6:20-21
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

It is a continual battle...
Die daily.

The promised land is symbolic of heaven.

Not many made it because they lacked faith.

They didn't believe in the power of God to save them. They looked at themselves and believed they would fail.

 

[PaulThomson]

God is not limited as you are limited....

Certainly. I am not omnipotent, Nor do I know all the past and the present. God is infinitely greater than I in power and in knowledge.

Did you really think I believe God is limited as I am limited? Or are you merely using a moralistic argument for rhetorical effect?

 

[PaulThomson]

Better not read Paul in the Greek text then.
He copped many a Greek concept and even used their terminology to reveal how God works in us.....
If, He in fact, is able to work in us.

Do you have any examples of this alleged Pauline adoption of Platonism?

 

[Cameron143]

Oh
In simple terms

We are slaves... we can not free ourselves.... we are stuck and all our efforts will fail....

But God offers us a way to be free.
GOD GAVE US HIS SON. Jesus came to set us free.

We have to make a choice. Will we by faith except the gift of salvation or will we stay slaves to sin.

Can you see the choice we are able make.
When love is shown to us and we see the difference between what Jesus offers and what the world offers. When we choose to ALLOW Jesus to help us, our hearts are changed.

We need to tell the world about the cure, about the freedom that Jesus wants to give us.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

If it is already decided why are we told to teach ALL.

Men love darkness, not the light. None seek after God. You have to change this about a person or the gospel will be foolishness to them. So, salvation must begin with a work of God.

 

[Genez]

Do you have any examples of this alleged Pauline adoption of Platonism?

Yes, I do.

Only if you are willing to sit and study.

 

[TMS]

Men love darkness, not the light. None seek after God. You have to change this about a person or the gospel will be foolishness to them. So, salvation must begin with a work of God.

Like Israel in Eygpt we do not seek God. God seeks us and sets us free. Israel choose to follow God.

Moses walked through the red sea and Israel followed. They were persuaded by the signs they saw. We too can see God's workings if we will only look. We can find reasons to not follow if we want to doubt.

Without God we are lost and will not seek Him. But with God's help we can find Him.

I agree salvation does begin with a work of God. But does God force us to be saved and can we choose to reject salvation?

 

[sawdust]

Perhaps?
Keep in mind.... Romans 1:18b-20

​

Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. ​

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature​

—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without ​

excuse.​

grace and peace ................

Yes but Paul says what is obvious is His "divine nature and eternal power". That is very general and impersonal. It doesn't really define the specifics of His nature. If that was all we had of His word, how well would we really know God?

 

[sawdust]

Isaiah 46:10 does not state that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of all things. Nor does it state that everything that happens is God's pleasure. Nor does it state that all things that will ever be were declared or determined before the beginning of the world. Nor does it state that future events are already a done deal.

You should stop misrepresenting what God says as though He is saying something else. We should all pay more careful attention to what He actually says and actually does not say in His word.

Nor have I used the verse to declare any of those things. You stated God can only know the future as uncertain possibilities.

If the future is a series of probability functions that only collapse into certainty when they become the present, that is how God would know the future: as uncertain possibilities

Isaiah 46:10 says God declares the end from the beginning and things before they occur. He is not declaring uncertainties. You seem to keep missing that point.

Maybe you should also pay attention to another Isaiah passage and stop treating Him as if He is like men.

Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.

 

[Genez]

Yes but Paul says what is obvious is His "divine nature and eternal power". That is very general and impersonal. It doesn't really define the specifics of His nature. If that was all we had of His word, how well would we really know God?

Romans 1:18b-20 is the most basic level of drawing men to God.
Its God's drawing man 101.;

Men who have been drawn then need to seek the Word to find out about the one who has such power to create a earth shaking volcano.

 

[PaulThomson]

Nor have I used the verse to declare any of those things. You stated God can only know the future as uncertain possibilities.

No. I have said if God wants to predict an event he can use His omnipotence to make it make a certain thing happen, but unless He uses His omniootence to intervene and cause events then they are uncertain probabilities. And the only way God cpuld know all future evenys is if He is using His omnipotence to conform all events to a programmed plan, which eould make God the cause/origin of all evil. I don't believe God is that.

Isaiah 46:10 says God declares the end from the beginning and things before they occur. He is not declaring uncertainties. You seem to keep missing that point.

Yes, God can declare an end from a beginning amd make that end happen
But that is a long way from the claim that God declares all ends from all beginnings, which would make all evil God's intention for creation.

Maybe you should also pay attention to another Isaiah passage and stop treating Him as if He is like men.

Isaiah 55:8
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.

Maybe you should pay attention to the same scripture and pull back from indicting God with the entailment of being the originator of all the world's evils.

 

[Genez]

Maybe you should pay attention to the same scripture and pull back from indicting God with the entailment of being the originator of all the world's evils.

He is the Originator of what produces those evils. But, not evil itself.

 

[posthuman]

The only reason I cited definitions for probability function and probability density field is that I had mentioned the former and you claimed I had said the latter, and they are clearly not exactly the same concept.

You are making a nonsense argument from your misunderstanding of quantum physics and bound particles. Bound particles synchronise simultaneously, that is instantaneously, that is in the same present. You are making the ridiculous assertion that if the two bound particles are on opposite sides of universe and a change is induced in one, and the other instantaneously conforms to the first, the second particle is really foretelling what the first will do because (you claim) information cannot be communicated faster than the speed of light. But you have just cited an example of information communicating instantaneously acoss light years of space. Light-years is a metric of distance, not of time.

My claim is that the future is a bouquet of constantly branching probability functions, and the further from the present one extends one's anticipation of events the exponentially more possibilities there are, making te future uncertain. The only way God can predict a future event as certain is for Him to intervene in events using His omnipotence to ensure an event to happens as predicted. And the only way God could be able to predict all future events would be formHim to be continuously intevening in events using His omnipotence to ensure that every event happens exactly as He has predetermined it to do. That would make g\God the Author of every evil that occurs.

Now, I have had enough of your foolish pretending to understand quantum physics work. Your theories do not match observation. They are based on metaphysical presupposition that are not found in scripture, and the conclusions they lead to contradict scripture. You may carry on if you want, but I am done with your quantum physics nonsense proofs.

yes you have demonstrated you don't understand math or physics. and that's fine. most people don't. i'm not going to give you 20 years of education in them in a thread like this.

but to believe God cannot know what man will do is also demonstrating that you do not understand scripture. consider:

Matthew 26:34​

Jesus said to him, ​

"Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."​

​

does Christ cause Peter to sin?
did God just make a really lucky guess?