Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Magenta]

I wasn't referring to the flood, but this brings up another good point. My point was actually that the
lifeguard would have to breathe life back into the person before the person was considered saved.

Well, a lifeguard could simply save someone from the danger of being swept away by the tides or whatever...

The tides in this case being representative of conforming to sinful worldly ways...

And yes, I do realize you were not necessarily referring to the flood...

But the correlation was so obvious to me I could not resist .

 

[Cameron143]

Well, a lifeguard could simply save someone from the danger of being swept away by the tides or whatever...

The tides in this case being representative of conforming to sinful worldly ways...

And yes, I do realize you were not necessarily referring to the flood...

But the correlation was so obvious to me I could not resist .

Oh I'm with you...I would rather be in the boat than in the water...floaties optional.

 

[Cameron143]

Depends on the soteriological view once again. This is why I normally leave the parables to Jesus. But, my final attempt here is that one man's trash is another man's treasure. @PaulThomson and I seem to have a similar eye for [soteriological] value and Biblical reality.

I like parables and analogies, but if they are going to be used, they should reflect reality.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="studier, post: 5336639, member: 330481"

NKJ John 17:20-23 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

The bold underlined are purpose clauses. Jesus' prayer in those clauses is for the world.
The first underlined portion is for future believers which follows Jesus' statement about then current believers.
The way I read all this, it conforms very nicely to 1Tim4:10 and all the Scriptures in my above linked for your convenience post that compare to 1Tim4:10.[/quote]

John 17:6
6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
NIV

John 17:9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

Jesus took his disciples OUT OF the world because his Father had given them to the Son.

John 17:14
14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
NIV

And again for reinforcement:

John 17:16
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
NIV

Then Jesus continued to pray for the second flock of sheep who would become one with the first flock:

John 17:20
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message
NIV

Now to your "proof texts" that contradict v, 9:


John 17:21b-23
May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
NIV

This passage says nothing about the world believing in Jesus for salvation. Jesus is praying for his elect sheep whose purpose is to go out into the world that HATES them and Christ, and to be lights in that dark world and to testify to the world, through their gospel preaching, that their deeds are evil and tht the world desperately needs Christ. Through the Great Commission this dark, fallen world will come to "know" that the Father sent the Son and that He loved his elect as as He loved his Son. That's all the passage is saying.

This following passage bears my interpretation out:

John 16:7-9
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
NASB

The only way God could justly punish the ultimate sin of unbelief is if the world "knew' of Christ and His Father as stated in vv 21b-23. But of course, without God effectual grace, no one is able to believe! So...these people will perish in their sin because they did not want to believe the gospel.

Jesus did not contradict himself. He clearly drew a distinction between Himself and the world, between his disciples (both flocks) and the world and between being "IN" the world and "OF" it. Jesus very clearly did not pray for this latter group. He prayed only for his two flocks would be sent INTO the world to preach the Gospel.

How totally dishonest and disingenuous of you to conveniently bypass v.9, as though it's not even in this chapter. You made no attempt to reconcile your contradiction. And, yet, here you are, all full of yourself, the proverbial pot calling the kettle black by constantly accusing me of eisegesis!

 

[Rufus]

Well, a lifeguard could simply save someone from the danger of being swept away by the tides or whatever...

The tides in this case being representative of conforming to sinful worldly ways...

And yes, I do realize you were not necessarily referring to the flood...

But the correlation was so obvious to me I could not resist .

The Divine Lifeguard, evidently, went off duty after he saved the Israelites by allowing them to march on dry ground through the Red Sea to escape their enemy, but not extending the same courtesy to the Egyptians.

 

[Rufus]

Connect the dots. Who is the Lifeguard?

A mere human who PT was trying to make into a god of his own invention.

 

[Rufus]

Eisegetes are normally satisfied with their eisegetical conclusions.

Did you look to see how other Reformed students of the Text interpret the verse and the entire argument?

No, I haven't because I know from extensive personal study how often "universal" terms are used in a limited sense. Plus my interpretation doesn't present any problems with the rest of scripture. Meanwhile, how are you and your buddy PT doing with my six questions I asked about 1Tim 4:10. Get working on those and convince me. Show me how smart you are.

 

[studier]

I like parables and analogies, but if they are going to be used, they should reflect reality.

Again, re: soteriology, or much of anything theological for that matter, one man's reality is....

Thankfully none of us are the final arbiter of truth.

 

[Rufus]

The discussion is already ending. Once again, your methodology of consistent lengthy narrative with ad hominem is not acceptable argument for some of us. I can see it's strategically beneficial in your mind for getting you out of tight spots and keeping your mirror polished. Separating the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Mediator of the New Covenant from the New Covenant He mediated in order to protect "unconditional election" is just another eisegetical farce.

With that said, re: 1Tim4:10, I don't have any need to read whatever number of doors you want to put into place. I know the arguments and I have one thought I haven't seen in the good ones I've read (which doesn't mean it hasn't been put forth in things I haven't read), but it requires looking into the range of meanings of the verb you think you understand from English. If the observation I'm seeing has merit, you would not be the one to recognize it.

Of course, you don't have any need read anything you can't answer. Elementary, Dr. Holmes. This is your typical modus operandi. If you had answers, though, you would provide them in a heartbeat. You just don't like tough questions, so you shrug them off and blame the inquiring mind for asking such ridiculous questions. Ignorance is truly blissful in your world, isn't it?

And talking about questions -- I asked two earlier in 9998 about who ratified the Abrahamic and New Covenants. Very simple multiple choice questions. Here they are again:

Re Abrahamic Covenant: Who ratified this covenant in Gen 15?

a) God
b) Abraham
c) Both

Re the New Covenant: Who ratified this covenant in the Gospels?
a) Jesus
b) Jesus and his chosen disciples at the Last Supper
c) Jesus and all God's elect
d) Jesus and the entire world
e) all the above

How you answer will determine the nature of the two covenants.

P.S. The answers are actually "easy peasy". Of course, to many the implications to those answers will not be.

 

[studier]

How totally dishonest and disingenuous of you to conveniently bypass v.9,

How typically dishonest and disingenuous of you to bypass what I pointed out to you. I didn't disagree that Jesus prayed for His men. I disagreed with you saying that Jesus did not pray for the world when in fact part of His prayer was clearly for the world to believe Jesus was sent by our Father.

One of the sad truths of this prayer is that our Lord prayed for certain things for His men for a purpose that could be of benefit for the belief of the world. In forums like this and with ad hominem experts like yourself, one of the last things we are is an example to the world that Jesus even existed.

 

[studier]

but not extending the same courtesy to the Egyptians

Who were given every opportunity to accept the God who did miracles to make Himself known to them. At some point of rejection, you perish even though the Savior God was right there in His representative offering you the life line.

 

[Cameron143]

Again, re: soteriology, or much of anything theological for that matter, one man's reality is....

Thankfully none of us are the final arbiter of truth.

So you said. I was actually just seeing if it was your disposition to have the last word.

 

[Cameron143]

Who were given every opportunity to accept the God who did miracles to make Himself known to them. At some point of rejection, you perish even though the Savior God was right there in His representative offering you the life line.

Where do you find God offering Pharaoh a lifeline?

 

[Rufus]

How typically dishonest and disingenuous of you to bypass what I pointed out to you. I didn't disagree that Jesus prayed for His men. I disagreed with you saying that Jesus did not pray for the world when in fact part of His prayer was clearly for the world to believe Jesus was sent by our Father.

One of the sad truths of this prayer is that our Lord prayed for certain things for His men for a purpose that could be of benefit for the belief of the world. In forums like this and with ad hominem experts like yourself, one of the last things we are is an example to the world that Jesus even existed.

I addressed your two verses. All Jesus basically said is that through the witness of his sheep the world may believe or know that the Father sent the Son and loved his sheep. But there isn't a thing in 21b-23 that says that the world would come to believe on Him for salvation. That is explicitly said for those in v.20 -- the second flock.

Great example of eisegesis! You're reading your wishful presuppositions into the passage. So, yes, you did ignore v. 9 by not reconciling your interpretation of 21.b-23 with it. It's very, very clear that Jesus did not pray for those OF the world -- the ungodly whose god is Satan! Yet, you still say he did pray for the world that Jesus said he didn't pray for. I know who I'm going to believe. That's a no-brainer.

 

[Rufus]

Where do you find God offering Pharaoh a lifeline?

Or the Egyptians under his rule for that matter. God left that pagan, idolatrous nation to stew in its own juices. Egypt was clearly a type of world, i.e. or more specifically a type of dominion of darkness under the rule of the evil one (of whom Pharaoh himself was a type). God had zero intentions of rescuing the citizens of that dark kingdom any more than he was interested in saving Adam after he sinned. God "came down" to rescue only his helpless elect. One has to be totally blind -- intentionally blind to not see these truths and to very easily make the parallels to the antitypes in the NT.

 

[studier]

tough questions

When are you going to prove the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Mediator of the New Covenant is separate and distinct from the New Covenant He implemented?


Why did the God who makes unilateral covenants with men deem it important to clearly state to men that His unilateral covenant with Abraham would advance because [faithful] Abraham obeyed Him?

Why do we read through 3 chapters of Gen12-15 that speak of Abraham's mostly faithful obedience to YHWH over a period of about 10 years before we see Him cut the covenant?

Why does the God who makes unilateral covenants with men provide the blessings of that covenant to men who believe in / obey Him?

 

[Cameron143]

Or the Egyptians under his rule for that matter. God left that pagan, idolatrous nation to stew in its own juices. Egypt was clearly a type of world, i.e. or more specifically a type of dominion of darkness under the rule of the evil one (of whom Pharaoh himself was a type). God had zero intentions of rescuing the citizens of that dark kingdom any more than he was interested in saving Adam after he sinned. God "came down" to rescue only his helpless elect. One has to be totally blind -- intentionally blind to not see these truths and to very easily make the parallels to the antitypes in the NT.

There will be representatives in glory of every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue. I just don't see that they came from this particular generation. I would still like to see a scriptural connection if one exists.

 

[studier]

So you said. I was actually just seeing if it was your disposition to have the last word.

me too. who will break the loop?

 

[studier]

But there isn't a thing in 21b-23 that says that the world would come to believe on Him for salvation

Who said there was? You said Jesus did not pray for the world and I showed from Scripture that you were clearly wrong.

In 17:9 Jesus is praying for His current followers and distinguishing them from the world. As He continues to pray He prays for others who will come to believe. In this context Jesus prays for His followers for a purpose - so the world may believe. That's simply what the Text says.

Neither of us sees universalism in salvation. I simply accept what the Text clearly says and come away with no universalism while not having to stuff everything into a TULIP box.

 

[studier]

Where do you find God offering Pharaoh a lifeline?

Question accepted and statement retracted. It seems obvious that this king of Egypt who did not know Joseph was always a God rejecter and that God treated him accordingly and for His own glory.