Loss of salvation???

[sawdust]

Can you explain the following verse given that you believe OSAS?

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law;
you have fallen from grace.

"severed from Christ"

"fallen from grace"

Why does God torture folk by leading them into grace then discarding them?

Severed from fellowship like a child being sent to their room. Doesn't make them not belong to their parents.

Fallen from the power source (grace) that enables you to walk the holy life you have been given.

You need to remember, it's not your life you are living, it is Christ's life in you (Gal.2:20). That requires grace and truth. How much of Christ's life is transferred to becoming our life won't be made apparent until the Resurrection after we have been taken out of Christ and revealed, much like Eve was revealed after being taken out of Adam. Many, like the legalists the Galatians had become, think they are living as God intended but they are not walking by grace in the filling of the Spirit through faith (which is the truth alive and at work in you) but are walking in the flesh. While things are going well, it is hard to tell otherwise, but then disaster strikes and they fall apart. Those who live according to God's plan learn to be content in all things and whether good or bad circumstances, remain content and unfazed by disaster. Like Job, they can say with full conviction in peace and joy (strength), "I know my Redeemer lives".

Where do you get this idea of God torturing people? You keep making stuff up about what I say. Not very Christlike if you ask me.

If you cut yourself off from the truth (by failing to walk according to God's plan) you will find yourself enslaved to your fears, arrogance, bitterness etc whatever you are a mind to be plagued by. The Lord will discipline you as any good Father would. We are all disciplined and it is never pleasant but our attitude to discipline will affect how unpleasant it will be. The one who willfully, whether it is from ignorance or knowing, "kicks against the goads" will know more pain than necessary. (Acts 26:14)

It was Paul's refusal to recognise the Yahweh he believed in was the same Jesus Christ who became as flesh and walked amongst us that led to his extremely painful "butt kick" on the Damascus road.

 

[sawdust]

I don't think that a Christian that habitually lives in sin is saved. Especially if they have
been strongly disciplined by the Lord for their sin.

You don't seem to have understood what I said. A Christian cannot live habitually in sin. That's the point of what Paul is saying. Those who do, don't belong to God and it's not a matter of they were saved but then not saved.

The Father only disciplines His children. Unbelievers are convicted of sin, not disciplined for sin. They need to be saved before they can be disciplined (learn) from God.

 

[Inquisitor]

Severed from fellowship like a child being sent to their room. Doesn't make them not belong to their parents.

Fallen from the power source (grace) that enables you to walk the holy life you have been given.

You need to remember, it's not your life you are living, it is Christ's life in you (Gal.2:20). That requires grace and truth. How much of Christ's life is transferred to becoming our life won't be made apparent until the Resurrection after we have been taken out of Christ and revealed, much like Eve was revealed after being taken out of Adam. Many, like the legalists the Galatians had become, think they are living as God intended but they are not walking by grace in the filling of the Spirit through faith (which is the truth alive and at work in you) but are walking in the flesh. While things are going well, it is hard to tell otherwise, but then disaster strikes and they fall apart. Those who live according to God's plan learn to be content in all things and whether good or bad circumstances, remain content and unfazed by disaster. Like Job, they can say with full conviction in peace and joy (strength), "I know my Redeemer lives".

Where do you get this idea of God torturing people? You keep making stuff up about what I say. Not very Christlike if you ask me.

If you cut yourself off from the truth (by failing to walk according to God's plan) you will find yourself enslaved to your fears, arrogance, bitterness etc whatever you are a mind to be plagued by. The Lord will discipline you as any good Father would. We are all disciplined and it is never pleasant but our attitude to discipline will affect how unpleasant it will be. The one who willfully, whether it is from ignorance or knowing, "kicks against the goads" will know more pain than necessary. (Acts 26:14)

It was Paul's refusal to recognise the Yahweh he believed in was the same Jesus Christ who became as flesh and walked amongst us that led to his extremely painful "butt kick" on the Damascus road.

You have an interpretation and you applied it to the text below.

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law;
you have fallen from grace.

Your interpretation is faulty and ignores the plain language of the text.

'Severed from Christ' means exactly what it says.

The text (Galatians 5:4) does not say "severed from fellowship".

I am baffled to how some people can read a verse and not understand
what the simple text is stating?

How do you do that?

 

[Inquisitor]

You don't seem to have understood what I said. A Christian cannot live habitually in sin. That's the point of what Paul is saying. Those who do, don't belong to God and it's not a matter of they were saved but then not saved.

The Father only disciplines His children. Unbelievers are convicted of sin, not disciplined for sin. They need to be saved before they can be disciplined (learn) from God.

The Galatians at the time of the reception of Paul's letter were fallen from grace.

The Galatian church was severed from Jesus Christ.

Paul's warning was a very strong rebuke of the Galatian church.

This has nothing to do with gentle discipline of some in the church.

 

[sawdust]

You have an interpretation and you applied it to the text below.

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law;
you have fallen from grace.

Your interpretation is faulty and ignores the plain language of the text.

'Severed from Christ' means exactly what it says.

The text (Galatians 5:4) does not say "severed from fellowship".

I am baffled to how some people can read a verse and not understand
what the simple text is stating?

How do you do that?

Because some of us look at the whole counsel of God and not cherry pick verses. Christ will not let you go so how do you propose to get away from Him? You have been adopted as God's child, how do you propose to nullify His work? You have been made alive and cannot die and have been made to become a brand new never seen before creation in Christ. How do you propose to undo that? You're not that strong. Nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. You are part of the creation, hence again, you can't undo what God has done to you.

Then some of us think deeply about what it means when those verses are placed alongside the verses of "being severed" or "falling from grace" and wonder in what way can we be severed or fall if we cannot be lost to God or undo what He has done? Paul gives us a clue when he speaks so strongly about not walking according to the flesh or when he refers to people like the Corinthians as "saints" while they were sinning left, right and centre. Or we can look at the letters in Revelation and realise even the Laodiceans who were terrible Christians (at the time of writing) still belonged to Christ and none of them (who were not fulfilling God's plan) were ever threatened with loss of salvation but were told they were in danger of losing their rewards.

Is salvation a gift or a prize to be earned? There are rewards to be earned in the Christian life but it is not salvation from death, that is a gift and one that is never rescinded. I pray one day you will come to realise this.

 

[sawdust]

The Galatians at the time of the reception of Paul's letter were fallen from grace.

The Galatian church was severed from Jesus Christ.

Paul's warning was a very strong rebuke of the Galatian church.

This has nothing to do with gentle discipline of some in the church.

Strewth! One minute it's God torturing and now it's gentle discipline.

Make your mind up what is happening or admit you have no idea what I mean.

 

[timemeddler]

it's sad and scary when Christians begin to drift, pray for those who need to correct their course before they're hearts are made hard and cease to believe.

 

[Lamar]

it's sad and scary when Christians begin to drift, pray for those who need to correct their course before they're hearts are made hard and cease to believe.

Don't be too sad or scared.

Many here do not believe you can drift away or that you can cease to believe.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You have been released from legalism and that is fantastic.

It is always encouraging to hear from someone who has escaped that yoke of slavery.

1 Corinthians 2-5
And when I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come as someone superior
in speaking ability or wisdom, as I proclaimed to you the testimony of God. For I
determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
I also was with you in weakness and fear, and in great trembling, and my message
and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration
of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of mankind,
but on the power of God.

The gospel is short and sweet.

For I
I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

My release from legalism was't passive (as in "You have been released". It was very active in that God led me (passive on my part) as He does others, but I had to trust Him and walk in His light (both things active on my part) in order to escape legalism's grip. And I can testify that the moment I realized that what He was revealing to me was actually true was the moment that obliterated many false beliefs I had previously held. And the path forward from there was not easy as those false beliefs did not go down without a fight. And though at the time I thought my world was crumbling, keeping my eyes on Him and His grace as He led me through it one precept at a time, I can honestly say now that He is worthy of our trust.

I find myself torn between two of your views. I gladly rejoice with you over the rejection of legalism. But I do not support the idea that God abandons to hell His children that fall victim to the scourge of legalism. On the contrary, He leads them out of it as He does with all other sins they commit.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I don't think that a Christian that habitually lives in sin is saved. Especially if they have
been strongly disciplined by the Lord for their sin.

Habitual sin is a misnomer because all sin is habitual. Name me a single person who does not sin on a regular basis. Let's take a famous Texas preacher's comment that on one occasion he had gone as many as three days in a row without committing a single sin. Even if that were true, and even if he reached that level of performance over his entire lifetime, he would commit approximately 122 sins per year and over 6000 sins over 50 years. That is habitual sin. And repenting after every one of those sins does not change the fact.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

it's sad and scary when Christians begin to drift, pray for those who need to correct their course before they're hearts are made hard and cease to believe.

Fortunately, God corrects His children because He loves them. And He doesn't stop until they are corrected. If they are without correction, they are not His. As a result, no true Christian will wake up one day a million miles away from the Lord and not know how he got there. (Heb 12:5-11)

If we see someone walk away, he may be walking away from something other than the Lord (like false doctrine), or he may be walking away from the Lord having never known Him.

 

[Inquisitor]

it's sad and scary when Christians begin to drift, pray for those who need to correct their course before they're hearts are made hard and cease to believe.

What you said is so obvious, "before they're hearts are made hard and cease to believe".

They misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Our salvation hinges on that act of believing in Jesus, that faith in Jesus (Romans 10:9).

A continuous sinful life style as a Christian erodes that faith in Jesus.

Loving the world as a Christian has that same effect, loss of trust in Jesus.

Loving God and money, see above.

God is not mocked!

 

[Inquisitor]

Fortunately, God corrects His children because He loves them. And He doesn't stop until they are corrected. If they are without correction, they are not His. As a result, no true Christian will wake up one day a million miles away from the Lord and not know how he got there. (Heb 12:5-11)

If we see someone walk away, he may be walking away from something other than the Lord (like false doctrine), or he may be walking away from the Lord having never known Him.

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has
trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood
of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Inquisitor]

Habitual sin is a misnomer because all sin is habitual. Name me a single person who does not sin on a regular basis. Let's take a famous Texas preacher's comment that on one occasion he had gone as many as three days in a row without committing a single sin. Even if that were true, and even if he reached that level of performance over his entire lifetime, he would commit approximately 122 sins per year and over 6000 sins over 50 years. That is habitual sin. And repenting after every one of those sins does not change the fact.

We already know that.

What Paul was looking for in these young churches was the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
To be more precise, the evidence of conversion was the evidence and growth of the fruit
among these churches.

Faith and love must be growing and therefore sin must be declining.

This is not difficult to understand if you know Paul's letters well.

We are predestined to be conformed to that image of Christ (Romans 8:29).

Predestined to love others unconditionally.

Love is the antithesis of selfishness.

John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you,
that you also love one another.

This commandment is not a work.

That commandment is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, it's not from us.

1 Corinthians 8:3
But if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

Do not be deceived, we must trust Jesus and obey Him also.

The fruit is the hard evidence, no fruit means no trust in Jesus.

 

[Inquisitor]

Don't be too sad or scared.

Many here do not believe you can drift away or that you can cease to believe.

The way I see it is different.

No fruit, no growth, drifting, has only one outcome.

Revelation 3:16
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

 

[Inquisitor]

Strewth! One minute it's God torturing and now it's gentle discipline.

Make your mind up what is happening or admit you have no idea what I mean.

I know exactly what your saying, what you believe.

You believe that someone can drift and even rebel but God will not reject them.

I do not believe that.

There are far too many warnings in the New Testament regarding the bearing
of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

See if you can read and understand the next verse?

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey
the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

But the one who does not obey the Son will not see life.

Faith and obedience to Jesus are one and the same word, a Christian!

 

[sawdust]

I know exactly what your saying, what you believe.

You believe that someone can drift and even rebel but God will not reject them.

I do not believe that.

There are far too many warnings in the New Testament regarding the bearing
of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

See if you can read and understand the next verse?

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey
the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

But the one who does not obey the Son will not see life.

Faith and obedience to Jesus are one and the same word, a Christian!

And the only way a person can live as a Christian is to be saved. If one does not obey the Gospel, they're not saved. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. (Rom.1:16) The Gospel is that Christ died for our sin and rose from the dead. (1Cor.15:3&4) Those who believe the Gospel are saved. You continue to confuse sanctification with salvation from death. The latter is what places you into the position so the former can be achieved. Not every Christian produces gold, silver and precious gems. Some produce nothing but wood, hay and straw but they are still saved.

1Cor.3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

There are those who believe this passage only applies to teachers and even if that is so, we know teachers are held to a higher standard (Jm.3:1) yet they are saved, so how much more will us "plebes" be saved by the grace of God.

We work and endure for the prize, not for the gift. Please learn the difference.

 

[sawdust]

You believe that someone can drift and even rebel but God will not reject them.

And to clarify, I do not believe a person can rebel against God and be saved. They might rebel against the Church, but not God. There are those who pretend they are saved or who think they are saved but are not, but no true rebel is saved.

 

[Chaps]

Give us a break. It has everything to do with what you think because you think the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation. The implication of your statement is only you know what it is really teaching and I don't.

Show you scripture? The very Romans 8 scriptures you quote show God has made the believer alive and they are alive on the basis of the indwelling Spirit, not on the basis of their walk. You seem to confuse being "in the flesh" (unsaved) and "walking after the flesh" (failing to walk by grace). A believer can "walk after the flesh" but that does not mean he dies again. He cannot die. (Jn.3:18)

Rom.8:9-11
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Everyone who is saved has the Spirit of God in them and belongs to Christ. Therefore, whether they walk according to God's plan (in Spirit and truth) or not they belong to Christ and are guaranteed to be raised.

It is everything about what God can do and indeed has done. We did not choose to be saved, we do not choose to stay saved. We choose to walk in obedience to the truth but whether we are faithful or not, God remains faithful.

You need to stop assuming because a believer fails to live the godly life that they have received, that God will act like a man and take back what He gave because the believer wasn't "good enough".

I never said you dont know what the Bible teaches. I was only saying it’s hard to have a discussion when you only post your opinion but no scripture. But thank you for posting scripure in this last post.

If you were to continue with that text you quoted, you’d see it goes on to say…

Romans 8:12–13 (ESV): So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

So if he is talking to “brothers“ and your claim is that verse 11 is speaking to the fact that Christians will live if they live according to the Spirit, why is he not also talking to these same “brothers” and warning them they will die if they live according to the flesh? How can the unbeliever choose to live according to the flesh and not the Spirit if they do not have the Spirit? It seems clear to me that he is saying that Christians have a choice to live according to the flesh or Spirit. I agree that those who live according to the Spirit are guaranteed to be saved. But it seems clear to me that Christians also have the choice to live according to the flesh instead of the Spirit.

I also never said someone is not saved if they are not “good enough.” I think you are putting words in my mouth. I never said this nor do I believe it. I give you the courtesy of responding to your statements. I would appreciate the same courtesy. It does no good to try to discuss the teachings of the Bible if you make strawman arguments to discredit my position.

I also never said or implied that God will act like a man and take something back that he gave. I said that Scripture seems to teach that people have a choice to resist the Spirit and live according to the flesh. People have a choice to not believe. This has nothing to do with our goodness, but everything to do with our faith. Faith, as I see it, is not a momentary concent to facts that results in the Spirit taking over to ensure the believer can never not believe. It is an ongoing relationship of trust in Jesus.

Id also point out that Jesus never tells people to make a statement of faith or make a declaration of belief. He calls people to discipleship and to follow him. In fact, he often discouraged people from following him if they weren’t willing to take up the cross. If salvation is a moment of belief, why wouldnt he tell the rich young ruler to pray a prayer and make a statement of faith so that he could inherit eternal life? Why would he tell him to sell his belongings and follow him instead? Clearly the young man believed Jesus was from God and that he could provide eternal life. I believe it is because Jesus was seeking followers, and he did not teach that a moment of belief would guarantee the Spirit to negate the need for ongoing acts of trust, discipleship and commitment.

 

[Chaps]

Choosing Jesus and not shrinking back is an active Christian life.

Whether all the believers in Galatia called on Jesus throughout their lives is unlikely.

Paul is optimistic but Paul is no fool.

I do not disagree with this. It seems Paul is genuinely concerned about the faith of these believers in Galatia. Hence the stark warning about not abandoning the truth for a false Gospel.