Total Depravity

[Nehemiah6]

So we literally have faith, put there by God, that is dormant, and then drawn out by the hearing of the Gospel.

If what you say here is true then ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE would be saved. Is that not what God wants? So hear the words of Christ (John 3:17): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. The "world" here is the world of humanity, and the lexicons and John Calvin all agree that this is so. Therefore according to your theory, not one person should be lost.

But what does Christ say next which is confirmed by John the Baptist? John 3:18, 36: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God...
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (This corresponds to Mark 16:15,16).

So you can see that it is the Gospel and the Holy Spirit that GENERATE saving faith, and not all will believe in spite of that, because the resist the Gospel, and love darkness rather than light.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm following the bible.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here soul means " a living person". just like "eight souls were saved by water" (with reference to Noah and his family). No you are NOT following the Bible, which includes the verse I showed you. If God says spirit, soul and body, that is exactly what it is. Admit it.

Further confirmation is found in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Some Christians who say the unregenerate are dead argue that those same people who are dead can commit sins; and people who are dead are suffering torment in Hades. And yet the also say that dead means cannot function.

I think you are getting things mixed. The souls (or "hearts") of rhe unregenerate are very much alive, but their spirits are dead -- cannot understand spiritual things or communicate with God. This person is called "the natural man" -- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14). This person is therefore also "dead" in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

"Quickened" means made alive. But since this person is already alive, what was it that was "quickened"? It was the spirit. And once the spirit is made alive that person is no longer a "natural man" but becomes "a spiritual man" understanding spiritual things.

 

[TMS]

We don't seem to agree on the basics

What is salvation and faith, and free choice. So no wonder there is so many different views..

What are we saved from?
Sin.
Why is sin the issue? Because we can't dwell in God's presence when sin is in us.

How does God decide if we are saved or not? Judgment. God Judges the world and we are accepted or not accepted.

Does God accept any sin? No, we need to be 100% clean of sin or we are guilty of eternal death.

We can only stand before God, righteous by the gift of Jesus Christ. His righteousness is given to those that have faith.

We all have faith but we can continue to doubt and find reasons not to believe, or we can grow in our faith.

If our faith is being tested, who chooses the outcome?

 

[PaulThomson]

they said to Him,
Lord, increase our faith!

And he told them their request was unnecessary. They already had enough faith. They were born with the ability to be persuaded and to believe things .

 

[PaulThomson]

I think you are getting things mixed. The souls (or "hearts") of rhe unregenerate are very much alive, but their spirits are dead -- cannot understand spiritual things or communicate with God. This person is called "the natural man" -- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14). This person is therefore also "dead" in his trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1; Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

"Quickened" means made alive. But since this person is already alive, what was it that was "quickened"? It was the spirit. And once the spirit is made alive that person is no longer a "natural man" but becomes "a spiritual man" understanding spiritual things.

All the electrical circuits in my home are live. But when I throw on a switch that circuit is quickened. I do not need to recreate new circuits every time I want to turn on a light.

 

[HeIsHere]

And he told them their request was unnecessary. They already had enough faith. They were born with the ability to be persuaded and to believe things .

Makes sense, thank you.

I find scripture comes together perfectly with the right starting point.

 

[PennEd]

Perfectly responded to by John MacArthur:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/748671896984110?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=0VwfS7

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You will see that Gen 4 verses 1, 2 and 3 give a single chain of waw + imperf3ct verb forms following the perfect verb from at the beginning, the verb "knew", in "And-Adam knew Eve..."Therefore all the verbs in vv 1-3 are temporally sequential.

Here is what I see in Gen 4:1-3:

Gen 4:1:

And Adam knew [Verb: Qal Perfect]​

and she conceived [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

and bare [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

and said [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

​

I have gotten [Verb: Qal Perfect]​

​

Gen 4:2:

​

And she again [waw | Verb Hilfil Consecutive Imperfect]​

​

bare [Verb Qal Infinitive] – does this begin another temporal sequence? ... possibly not because verb is not "perfect"?​

and Abel was [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

a keeper [Verb Qal Participle]​

​

Cain was [Verb Qal Perfect]​

a tiller [Verb Qal Participle]​

​

Gen 4:3:

​

And it came to pass [ waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

that Cain brought [waw | Verb Hilfil Consecutive Imperfect]​

But verse 4 has a perfect verb form without waw, so iit is NOT sequential to verses 1, 2 and 3.

well ... it had to happen after verses 1, 2 because Abel would not have been able to bring an offering to the Lord prior to that.

It happened not after, but some time before the last verb on the previous chain. So, Abel had brought his offering before Cain had.

Gen 4:4:

And Abel also brought [Verb Hilfil Perfect]​

the Lord had respect [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

​

Gen 4:5:

He had not respect [Verb Qal Perfect]​

Cain was very wroth [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

his countenance fell [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

It appears we have more than one instance of perfect verbs followed by waw imperfect verbs in Gen 4:1-3.

It is not clear that just because a perfect verb/waw imperfect verb sequence occurs, that means the sequence takes place earlier than a prior perfect verb/waw imperfect verb sequence.

As an example, when Eve said "I have gotten [perfect verb] a man from the Lord", this clearly follows the previous perfect verb/waw imperfect verb sequence beginning with "And Adam knew Eve".

just my 2¢ on that ...


What we do know from the record of Abel and Cain is that Abel brought his offering by faith (Heb 11:4) which (to me) implies Cain did not and without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Heb 11:6)
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Read Ezekiel 18. Sin is not inherited. We did not inherit Adam’s sin. We suffer the CONSEQUENCES of his sin—an evil world, a cursed earth, hard work, pain in childbearing; but we are not BORN SINNERS because of Adam’s sin. God says a son does NOT inherit the sin of his father. The one who sins is the one who dies.

Also, Psalms 106:38 talks about those people who offered their children to idols, God says they shed INNOCENT blood. Babies and children are innocent Jesus used a little child as an example of purity and innocence and said we must become like them if we want to go to heaven.
GOD DOES NOT SEND BABIES TO HELL.

... right ... I should have put quotation marks around the words "we are under sin". I was responding to what another poster had submitted.


My point in submitting Romans 5:12 is that it is not sin that passed upon all men ... it is death that passes upon all men because all sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Holding a similar view meaning you believe the natural man, who is hostile in his mind toward God since he is after all captive to the devil's will, a lover of darkness because his deeds are evil, and suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, is in that condition free in his own will to choose to believe in God without God doing something first to make making that choice possible?

Examples of God "doing something first":

Psalm 19:1-3 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Ezekiel 20:10-12 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

That God doing something first makes God unfair if He does not do that same thing for everyone whether everyone would ultimately desire it or not?

God is not unfair. God has clearly revealed to all mankind His eternal power and Godhead (i.e. doing "the same thing for everyone").

God has written His Word so that we may know Him (2 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 5:13).

God revealed His Word to people ... people then spoke (or should have spoken) to others. God has always used the method of preaching / prophesying to reach mankind.

Those who reject are the ones who will suffer the consequence of having rejected.

Those who trust are the ones who will receive the blessing of having trusted.

And that does not mean that the one who does not reject is any better than the one who does reject because, as you have stated many times ... what have we that we did not receive from God. Every good thing we are and have is from God.

According to Ephesians 1:12-13 ... hear ... trust ... believe ... sealed.

Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

... how shall they hear without a preacher ... how beautiful are the feet ...

I thank God for the faithful men and women who reached out to me ... and the faithful men and women who reached out to them ... and the faithful men and women who have through the ages reached out to others. Believers have the good great news of the gospel to hold out to others ... that gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes (Rom 1:16)
.

 

[Magenta]

God is not unfair.

Unfortunately, there are those here who think He is. Don't count me among them!

They have said and/or agreed with such things as God is a tyrannical fraudulent kidnapper perpetrating a hoax.

Romans 10:13-15

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Unfortunately, there are those here who think He is. Don't count me among them!

sad that some believe God is unfair ...

that you are not counted among them!

God clarifies whose ways are unfair in Exekiel 18.

They have said and/or agreed with such things as God is a tyrannical fraudulent kidnapper perpetrating a hoax.

when they say such stuff, they "heard" it somewhere, believe the lie, and repeat it to others.

God will not bring increase in the heart of those who believe the lie.

God only brings increase in the heart of those who believe the truth of His Word ... that is why it is incumbent upon the one who is "planting" and/or "watering" to speak the truth of God's Word ... not the wood, hay, stubble that will go up in smoke.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

(and I know you know this) ...

----------

very nice!!!

.

 

[PaulThomson]

Here is what I see in Gen 4:1-3:

Gen 4:1:

And Adam knew [Verb: Qal Perfect]​

and she conceived [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

and bare [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

and said [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

​

I have gotten [Verb: Qal Perfect]​

​

Gen 4:2:

​

And she again [waw | Verb Hilfil Consecutive Imperfect]​

​

bare [Verb Qal Infinitive] – does this begin another temporal sequence? ... possibly not because verb is not "perfect"?​

and Abel was [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

a keeper [Verb Qal Participle]​

​

Cain was [Verb Qal Perfect]​

a tiller [Verb Qal Participle]​

​

Gen 4:3:

​

And it came to pass [ waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

that Cain brought [waw | Verb Hilfil Consecutive Imperfect]​

well ... it had to happen after verses 1, 2 because Abel would not have been able to bring an offering to the Lord prior to that.





Gen 4:4:

And Abel also brought [Verb Hilfil Perfect]​

the Lord had respect [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

​

Gen 4:5:

He had not respect [Verb Qal Perfect]​

Cain was very wroth [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

his countenance fell [waw | Verb Qal Consecutive Imperfect]​

It appears we have more than one instance of perfect verbs followed by waw imperfect verbs in Gen 4:1-3.

It is not clear that just because a perfect verb/waw imperfect verb sequence occurs, that means the sequence takes place earlier than a prior perfect verb/waw imperfect verb sequence.

As an example, when Eve said "I have gotten [perfect verb] a man from the Lord", this clearly follows the previous perfect verb/waw imperfect verb sequence beginning with "And Adam knew Eve".

just my 2¢ on that ...


What we do know from the record of Abel and Cain is that Abel brought his offering by faith (Heb 11:4) which (to me) implies Cain did not and without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Heb 11:6)
.

Good catch. Yes, I overlooked the direct speech of Eve as being qal perfect without waw, so not sequential to Eve said. But it seems clear to me that she had gotten a man from the Lord before she said, "I have gotten me a man from the Lord." So, we should expect a disjunct in the waw consecutive chain there to indicate that the getting of the man was not after Eve said that she had.

 

[posthuman]

And he told them their request was unnecessary. They already had enough faith. They were born with the ability to be persuaded and to believe things .

He didn't actually exactly say any of that.

He told them very small faith is enough. But He also rebuked them at other times calling them, "you of little faith" and He explicitly told them that they had not chosen Him - that it was completely the other way around: He had chosen them.

 

[posthuman]

They already had enough faith. They were born with the ability to be persuaded and to believe things .

faith is not a capacity to be persuaded.

faith is the evidence of what is not seen, and substance of what is hoped for.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Good catch. Yes, I overlooked the direct speech of Eve as being qal perfect without waw, so not sequential to Eve said. But it seems clear to me that she had gotten a man from the Lord before she said, "I have gotten me a man from the Lord." So, we should expect a disjunct in the waw consecutive chain there to indicate that the getting of the man was not after Eve said that she had.

right ... the way I see this perfect verb / waw imperfect sequence as it relates to Gen 4:1-5 is as follows:

Genesis 4:

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said


1-2 I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep,


2-3 but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.


4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


and if as you state, Abel brought his offering prior to Cain having brought his offering, then I believe what you are saying is that you read Gen 4:4 right after "and Abel was a keeper of sheep" (Gen 4:2) ...

then you read "but Cain was a tiller of the ground" ... followed by the text relating to Cain's offering (Gen 4:4).
.

 

[PaulThomson]

He didn't actually exactly say any of that.

He told them very small faith is enough. But He also rebuked them at other times calling them, "you of little faith" and He explicitly told them that they had not chosen Him - that it was completely the other way around: He had chosen them.

They were of little faith, and they only need faith as a mustard seed (little faith) and Jesus asked them elsewhere "Where is your faith?", implying that they had faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

faith is not a capacity to be persuaded.

faith is the evidence of what is not seen, and substance of what is hoped for.

I did not say faith is the ability to be persuaded.

 

[Pasifika]

There are many, many Greek scholars that disagree with this assertion that faith is a gift in Ephesians 2.
Even John Calvin did not teach this.

In Cor. faith is given to support the gifts that are given.

You have no verse then that teaches saving faith is a gift.

Hi friend, try this, to see if faith is a gift from God..1Corins 12:31 ...Now eagerly desire the greater gifts..1Corins 13:13..faith,hope and Love. But the greatest of these is Love.