Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

Mem · Jul 12, 2024

Nice find! Might this be a genuine gem you're looking at? a treasure brought out?!

It'd always gave me pause to wonder how the Holy Spirit could ever be extinguished. He's from everlasting to everlasting! The human spirit, on the other hand... "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt 10:28)." I attend the school of thought that considers the second death as an extinguishment (which cause smoke to go up from) the soul. And so, apparently, it can be destroyed though not by any force outside of God. Yet, because there is a continuous struggle between one's own flesh and spirit, then it may well be very possible that the flesh strives to extinguish the spirit in order to obtain that which it most desires....

Magenta · Jul 12, 2024

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16

PaulThomson · Jul 13, 2024

Rufus said:

Your error is in assuming that a present condition, and what is possible for someone to do in their present condition, is a permanent condition unless God unilaterally recreates the person into being something different in the next present moment. You are ignoring the fact that changing circumstances change our perspective on what is desirable. We re-evaluate our priorities based on outcomes. Therefore someone who hates God can have experiences that cause them to reconsider their opinion of God. Someone who shuns certain knowledge can change their mind about their previous denial of their need for that kbowledge. Someone who loves money can realise what their lust for money has cost them in love and trust. You see humans as programmed robots meeding reprogramming rather than as intelligent beings learning through feedback loops and adjusting their priorities, opinions, choices and behavoiur because of the outcomes of past priorities, opinions, choices and actions.

Marilyn · Jul 13, 2024

Rufus said:

The `narrow gate,` was to the Jews and is the LAW. So, how can any of us who were in darkness come to the light of Christ? It is a work of God. God who in His mercy and grace has enabled man to be changed from darkness to light. All because of Christ.

Now, not everyone in the world or from past centuries had the understanding of Christ dying for them, so they will be judged on how they acted according to God`s revelation - (Rom. 1: 20) His invisible attributes and eternal power. (Rev. 20: 13) However it will be because of Christ`s sacrifice that they are saved from God`s wrath & eternal condemnation.

PaulThomson · Jul 13, 2024

Rufus said:

No. There is nothing that says fools must be unregenerate sinners. Regenerate sinners cam be fools too. Peter was blessed by the Father with spiritual insight one moment,, and satan the next.

Fool describes what a person is by their orientation and behaviour at any particular time. One can be being a fool one minute and being sensible the next. Fool is not a continuous category that a person belongs to by design or decree. It is a persona we adopt and discard at different times in different situations. When a person is being a fool, they behave as the scriptures describe the fool behaving. But they can switch to being wise in the blink of an eye, and start behaving as the scriptures describe the wise behaving.

PaulThomson · Jul 13, 2024

studier said:

cont'd

"through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"
- "through" is translating the preposition "en" that most basically (spatially) means "in".
  - Again, like "eis" there are many other ways to translate "en"
  - I think many English translations use "through" is because this English word can have the meaning of "by means of" (a process, an agent, etc.)
  - "en" can mean "by means of" but I would typically translate it as "be means of " or "by" rather than "through" because there is another preposition that is more basically translated as "through."
  - There are several other ways to translate this but for now I'll run with "by means of"
- This prepositional phrase is considered to be attached to "salvation" in this verse and I'm going to use the literal Greek for the prepositional phrases:
  - So, it looks like Paul is saying:
    - salvation by means of sanctification [of] S(s)pirit, and
    - salvation by means of belief/faith [of] truth.
    - So, sanctification [of] S(s)pirit, and belief/faith [of] truth are involved in salvation and "by means of" indicates instrumentality - so sanctification [of] S(s)pirit, and belief/faith [of] truth are instrumental in salvation
- sanctification of S(s)pirit
  - S(s)pirit:
    - At times it's difficult to determine if spirit is referring to the human spirit of the Holy Spirit and translation typically defer to Spirit
    - In 1-2 Thess Paul writes "spirit" 8x. Three are in 2Thess:
      - 2Thess2:2 Paul speaks of spirit in the sense of a deceiving spirit whether human or demonic or the combining of the two.
      - 2Thess2:8 Paul speaks of spirit in the sense of the breath/spirit of/from His mouth
      - 2Thess2:13 seems like the Holy Spirit because sanctification is mentioned but continuing the investigation because 2Thess is not as much of a help as I'd like to see.
      - 1Thess1:5-6 the Holy Spirit is clearly spelled out (though I'd look just a bit further at 1:6)
      - 1Thess4:8 God's Holy Spirit God has given to the Thess Christians.
      - 1Thess5:19 Typically considered to be the Holy Spirit to which I'd agree. Christian are commanded not to extinguish the [Holy] Spirit
      - 1Thess5:23 is an important one as Paul prays that the God of peace sanctify the Thess Christians [as] complete [men] and that their whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless until the coming/presence of the Lord Jesus Christ.
        
        So this makes it seem like we should translate 2Thess2:13 as "Spirit" - sanctification of/by [the] Spirit.
        
        But more research...
  - Sanctification:
    - 1Thess5:23 uses the verb form of sanctify and God is the one doing the sanctifying. This veb is used only this once in 1-2Thess
    - 2Thess2:13 is the only time the noun form is used in 2Thess.
    - 1Thess4:3 says the Christians sanctification is God's will. 4:2 Paul says he has given them instructions/commands about this through/as agents of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul proceeds to explain this sanctification:
      - You Thess Christians ("you"):
        
        to abstain from fornication
        
        4:4-7 to know to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, etc...
        
        4:8 Paul summarizes the reason: God did not call us upon/to uncleanness but in sanctification
    - So, the interesting things to me is:
      - God sanctifies 1Thess5:23
      - God's will is the Christian's sanctification.
      - God calls Christians to live in sanctification which is contrasted to living in uncleanness.
      - Christ teaches through Paul, et.al. what living in sanctification entails.
      - Christians actively live in sanctification as instructed/commanded

@Mem mentioned a "handshake" between us and God. I've spoken quite a bit about a commanded collaboration between us and our Father in our salvation. This concept can be seen above once again. God sanctifies men completely including their spirit, soul, and body - Christ teaches/commands sanctification - Christians obey God/Christ and live out sanctification (as God provides His capacities so Christians can both will and do what pleases God Phil2:12-13 and others). God is doing and Christians are doing [under grace].

Maybe we can begin to see what salvation in/by means of sanctification of S(s)pirit and belief/faith of truth means. I can see a few things under S(s)pirit I should shore up, then "belief/faith of truth."

To summarise the verses to their skeleton:

13. But we (Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, 1:1) are bound to give thanks to God always for you, (the Thessalonian Christians) brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from your stage 1 salvation, chose you then for stage three salvation, through undergoing stage two salvation. 14. He called you to stage two savation during your stage one salvation, for the obtaining of stage three salvation.

studier · Jul 13, 2024

Rufus said:

I've simply asked you questions. I've not said what I know or think from Scripture.

Rufus said:

Before I get into this, thank you for providing this list. Although some or many could care less, it's the type of work real students of the Text do. It's the reason we have concordances that have turned into search engines. It's also the type of work men were doing long before we had either of these tools. It looks like the next tool we'll have is AI and all it's data processing abilities couple with the good and bad that comes from all such man-programming.

I'm satisfied when the job of taking from Scripture is done as well as we can do it. I know it to be a lot of work and I know of Christians who do the work. So do you. I've done quite a bit of this type of work. I can see from what you write that you place great importance on working in the Text and/or from gathering from what others have done.

I also know from having studied the languages that using English translations can be helpful to work from and can also get us into error.

Now, an observation. I mentioned in a previous post that a quick search of a Hebrew manuscript shows the word translated "fools" in Prov1:7 is used 27x in the Tanakh. It looks like you've listed 64 verses. So, the first thing I'd do with your data is research how many different Hebrew words you're dealing with and what nuances or differences in meanings they are telling us.

Here's a list of the Scriptures that use the Hebrew word used in Prov1:7:
2 Ki. 24:15
Job 5:2
3
Ps. 107:17
Prov. 1:7
7:22
10:8
10
14
21
11:29
12:15
16
14:3
9
15:5
16:22
17:28
20:3
24:7
27:3
22
29:9
Isa. 19:11
35:8
Jer. 4:22
Hos. 9:7

I'd also look at the LXX translation and see how many Greek words may be involved and what those translators were telling us.

I'll finish in a separate post.

studier · Jul 13, 2024

Rufus said:

continuing:

So, now that you've provided such a list, and now that I can see how much work it is to unwind your list and see how many Hebrew and/or Greek words we're actually dealing with, the other thing I'd have to look at is how you get to "natural man" via this list, or if you even attempt to, or if you're simply making another assumption.

There's also a very interesting things taking place on this thread already. You have a follower who doesn't like me, who has already impaneled your work and has also made the assumption of it's correlation to the natural man even if you have or have not proven it yet.

Welcome to systematized theology and at minimum the 1Cor issue of favoritism that Paul was speaking to the young Christians about getting past.

studier · Jul 13, 2024

Mem said:

NKJ 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

σβέννυτε, verb imperative present active 2nd person plural from σβέννυμι
__________________________________
Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] σβέννυμι
• σβέννυμι fut. σβέσω; 1 aor. ἔσβεσα, inf. σβέσαι. Pass.: 1 fut. σβεσθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐσβέσθην LXX; pf. ptc pl. ἐσβεσμένοι 3 Macc. 6:34 (Hom. et al.; Sb 7033, 46; 67; LXX; TestJob 43:5; TestLevi 4:1; Ar. 5, 3; Just., D. 93, 1; Mel., P. 82, 614; Ath., R. 20 p. 73, 11) to cause an action, state, or faculty to cease to function or exist, quench, put out

a. lit. extinguish, put out τὶ someth., fire (Jos., Bell. 7, 405) Hb 11:34. In imagery, fiery arrows Eph 6:16; a smoldering wick Mt 12:20 (Is 42:3). Pass. be extinguished, be put out, go out (Artem. 2, 9; Pr 13:9; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 46; TestLevi 4:1) of lamps (s. TestJob 43:5 λύχνος … σβεσθείς; PGM 7, 364 σβέσας τὸν λύχνον; Musaeus, Hero and Leander 338) Mt 25:8. Cp. D 16:1. Of a pyre μετ᾽ ὀλίγον σβεννύμενον MPol 11:2. Of the fire of hell, that οὐ σβέννυται (Is 66:24) Mk 9:44, 46, 48; 2 Cl 7:6; 17:5; μηδέποτε σβεννύμενον πῦρ MPol 2:3.

b. fig. ext. of a, quench, stifle, suppress (Il. 9, 678 χόλον; epigram in praise of Apollonius of Tyana: New Docs 3, no. 15, 2 [III/IV AD] ἀμπλακίας ‘faults’; Pla., Leg. 8, 835d ὕβριν; 10, 888a τὸν θυμόν; Herm. Wr. 12, 6; SSol 8:7 τὴν ἀγάπην; 4 Macc 16:4 τὰ πάθη; Jos., Bell. 6, 31 τ. χαράν, Ant. 11, 40; Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας) τὸ πνεῦμα μὴ σβέννυτε 1 Th 5:19 (Plut., Mor. 402b τοῦ πνεύματος ἀπεσβεσμένου; Ps.-Plut., Hom. 127 τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ κατασβεννύμενον).—DELG. M-M. TW. Spicq.
__________________________________
Liddell-Scott, Greek Lexicon (Abridged)

[LS] σβέννυμι, ΣΒΕ´ΝΝΥ ΜΙ, σβέννυμι
ΣΒΕ´ΝΝΥ-ΜΙ or -ύω: f. σβέσω, Ep. σβέσσω: aor. i ἔσβεσα, Ep. inf. σβέσσαι:-Med., f. σβήσομαι: aor. i ἐσβεσάμην

ass., aor. i ἐσβέσθην: pf. ἔσβεσμαι:-besides these, the aor. 2, pf. and plqpf. act. are used intr., ἔσβην, ἔσβηκα, ἐσβήκειν. To quench, put out, Lat. extinguere, Hdt., Pind. 2. generally, to quench, quell, check, σβ. χόλον, μένος Il.; ὕβριν Simon.; κύματα Ar., etc. II. Pass. σβέννυμαι (with intr. tenses of Act., v. supr.), to be quenched, go out, Lat. extingui, of fire, Il.: metaph. of men, to become extinct, die, Anth. 2. generally, to be quelled or lulled, of wind, Od. Hence σβεστήριος
__________________________________
Louw-Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT

[LN] σβέννυμι (fut σβέσω aor ἔσβεσα inf σβέσαι) (a) extinguish a fire 14.70 (b) stop 68.52

We always have to remember that men with theological sensitivities are translating and even affecting our Lexical tools at times. I've found that considering the range of meanings of words and chasing how they are actually used in inspired Scripture can be very enlightening.

NC uses:

NKJ Matt. 12:20 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;
NKJ Matt. 25:8 "And the foolish said to the wise,`Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
NKJ Mk. 9:48 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJ Eph. 6:16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
NKJ 1 Thess. 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.
NKJ Heb. 11:34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

How would you translate these?

studier · Jul 13, 2024

PaulThomson said:

I agree with your assessment here. The spiritual death concept is taken to an extreme and God is active in this world in many, many ways bringing men to and understanding of their condition.

Didn't you earlier question someone about spiritual death and what it actually means?

studier · Jul 13, 2024

PaulThomson said:

Still going through my process even though lengthy. I'm finding "ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας" to be very interesting.

Mem · Jul 13, 2024

studier said:

NKJ 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.

σβέννυτε, verb imperative present active 2nd person plural from σβέννυμι
__________________________________
Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] σβέννυμι
• σβέννυμι fut. σβέσω; 1 aor. ἔσβεσα, inf. σβέσαι. Pass.: 1 fut. σβεσθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐσβέσθην LXX; pf. ptc pl. ἐσβεσμένοι 3 Macc. 6:34 (Hom. et al.; Sb 7033, 46; 67; LXX; TestJob 43:5; TestLevi 4:1; Ar. 5, 3; Just., D. 93, 1; Mel., P. 82, 614; Ath., R. 20 p. 73, 11) to cause an action, state, or faculty to cease to function or exist, quench, put out

a. lit. extinguish, put out τὶ someth., fire (Jos., Bell. 7, 405) Hb 11:34. In imagery, fiery arrows Eph 6:16; a smoldering wick Mt 12:20 (Is 42:3). Pass. be extinguished, be put out, go out (Artem. 2, 9; Pr 13:9; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 46; TestLevi 4:1) of lamps (s. TestJob 43:5 λύχνος … σβεσθείς; PGM 7, 364 σβέσας τὸν λύχνον; Musaeus, Hero and Leander 338) Mt 25:8. Cp. D 16:1. Of a pyre μετ᾽ ὀλίγον σβεννύμενον MPol 11:2. Of the fire of hell, that οὐ σβέννυται (Is 66:24) Mk 9:44, 46, 48; 2 Cl 7:6; 17:5; μηδέποτε σβεννύμενον πῦρ MPol 2:3.

b. fig. ext. of a, quench, stifle, suppress (Il. 9, 678 χόλον; epigram in praise of Apollonius of Tyana: New Docs 3, no. 15, 2 [III/IV AD] ἀμπλακίας ‘faults’; Pla., Leg. 8, 835d ὕβριν; 10, 888a τὸν θυμόν; Herm. Wr. 12, 6; SSol 8:7 τὴν ἀγάπην; 4 Macc 16:4 τὰ πάθη; Jos., Bell. 6, 31 τ. χαράν, Ant. 11, 40; Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας) τὸ πνεῦμα μὴ σβέννυτε 1 Th 5:19 (Plut., Mor. 402b τοῦ πνεύματος ἀπεσβεσμένου; Ps.-Plut., Hom. 127 τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ κατασβεννύμενον).—DELG. M-M. TW. Spicq.
__________________________________
Liddell-Scott, Greek Lexicon (Abridged)

[LS] σβέννυμι, ΣΒΕ´ΝΝΥ ΜΙ, σβέννυμι
ΣΒΕ´ΝΝΥ-ΜΙ or -ύω: f. σβέσω, Ep. σβέσσω: aor. i ἔσβεσα, Ep. inf. σβέσσαι:-Med., f. σβήσομαι: aor. i ἐσβεσάμην

ass., aor. i ἐσβέσθην: pf. ἔσβεσμαι:-besides these, the aor. 2, pf. and plqpf. act. are used intr., ἔσβην, ἔσβηκα, ἐσβήκειν. To quench, put out, Lat. extinguere, Hdt., Pind. 2. generally, to quench, quell, check, σβ. χόλον, μένος Il.; ὕβριν Simon.; κύματα Ar., etc. II. Pass. σβέννυμαι (with intr. tenses of Act., v. supr.), to be quenched, go out, Lat. extingui, of fire, Il.: metaph. of men, to become extinct, die, Anth. 2. generally, to be quelled or lulled, of wind, Od. Hence σβεστήριος
__________________________________
Louw-Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT

[LN] σβέννυμι (fut σβέσω aor ἔσβεσα inf σβέσαι) (a) extinguish a fire 14.70 (b) stop 68.52

We always have to remember that men with theological sensitivities are translating and even affecting our Lexical tools at times. I've found that considering the range of meanings of words and chasing how they are actually used in inspired Scripture can be very enlightening.

NC uses:

NKJ Matt. 12:20 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;
NKJ Matt. 25:8 "And the foolish said to the wise,`Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
NKJ Mk. 9:48 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJ Eph. 6:16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
NKJ 1 Thess. 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit.
NKJ Heb. 11:34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

How would you translate these?

Considering the OT nuances, Matt 12:20 is cross referenced with BSB Isaiah 43:17, "who brings out the chariots and horses, the armies and warriors together, to lie down, never to rise again; to be extinguished, snuffed out like a wick:"

And Ephesian 4:30 is explicit in designating the Holy Spirit as to whom one should not grieve. Is only that Paul is

being a "lazy" writer in 1 Thess 5:19? And isn't it of interest that grieving is often used in a context of a mourning of another that is dying?

studier · Jul 13, 2024

Mem said:

It's all of interest to me. I don't rely on translators with theological sensitivities that explain away Scripture for whatever reason, and in men there are many reasons. And I am one so I get to wrestle with mine too.

PaulThomson · Jul 13, 2024

studier said:

I don't think I got an answer there. Some like to keep equivocal vocabulary to dig escape tunnels with in a tight spot.

studier · Jul 13, 2024

PaulThomson said:

There's a lot of terminology used that we don't even know how to define but use it however we understand it whether it be right or wrong.

As you know, the phrase "spiritual death" is not in Scripture. Then we use it in everyday Christian discussions and it takes on whatever meaning we think it has. It's quite the challenge to actually think and speak Scripturally.

BillyBob · Jul 13, 2024

Magenta said:

Well, both you and @Rufus are back at it again! I just hate it when someone uses scripture to make their point!

Rufus · Jul 13, 2024

Magenta said:

You're very welcome.

Imagine that! God actually chose us to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and belief in the Truth! What a tyrannical dictator! What kind of an immoral, power-hungry monster would do that and FORCE us to enter his kingdom!? Answer: NONE! Only a gracious, kind, merciful, compassionate, loving God would chose to save vile sinners -- sinners whose hearts are FULL of EVIL!

Eccl 9:3b
The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.
NIV

Rufus · Jul 13, 2024

studier said:

The term "Trinity" isn't in the bible either...how should we describe the essence of God and what he is? Isn't the CONCEPT of the Trinity in scripture or have men dreamed that up as well?

Are you denying that there is such a thing as spiritual death? How did Adam die on the day he sinned? Have you never read:

Prov 1:22
22 "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
NIV

Rufus · Jul 13, 2024

Mem said:

Kinda like how fools hate knowledge and this is why they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, not wanting to retain God in their knowledge. Only the utterly self-deceived believe they can "extinguish" the Spirit.

HeIsHere · Jul 13, 2024

BillyBob said:

Good news then, more than Noah found favor with God.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

See it states "he walked faithfully with God" not God enabled him to walk faithfully.

Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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