Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

Good observation and question. My statement purposely deserved this.

Firstly, and primarily, my simplest answer in overview without all the Scripture actually posted at this point (hopefully you'll recognize where I'm drawing from) is:

• The Word of God and Spirit of God remain active in the world. Proclaimers are being sent and the Spirit is convicting/convincing. And since they are both inextricably interrelated, then they each and both have the power to do what they are doing. And the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. I think He laughs in derision against any man who thinks otherwise.
• Precisely how God gets through to men I have some thoughts on (see below) but I remain open to discussion from Scripture.

From there, I don't think God submits to the boxes men make for Him and He has many ways to accomplish His will:

• Rom3 seems all inclusive but it is being written by someone who is not or no longer is included, and the Scriptures Paul draws from distinctly identify the fools/wicked who say there is no God while also identifying God's people, so not all are fools who say there is no God. I see no way of going down through history in the Bible and coming up with all men being the God rejecters Paul seems to speak of. Generally speaking, sure, but not in the absolute sense even though at times in history things were worse than at other times. Some men do not reject the knowledge of God that He has made clear in all men.
• Acts2:37 I think this is simply what it says it is and it's not the transition you may think it is if you see Rom3 differently than I just explained. Acts 2 is men who believed God existed and who were expecting Messiah and transitioned into belief that Jesus is Messiah based upon work the resurrected Messiah / the Spirit was doing among them along with some of their countrymen sent by God to proclaim the Gospel to them.
• The Gentiles:
  • Men have consciences and that conscience is God created and God given and the work (singular) of God's law is done in men to varying degrees. Man's conscience can be extremely strong in some if not many. And orientation to conscience however strong or weak, if the standards are from God's standards, then the orientation is to righteousness and one of the things the Spirit is convicting of is righteousness which is correlated by Christ to belief in Hm.
    • FWIW, I actually think this orientation is much more important Biblically than many seem to care to discuss.
  • Life experience & desires coupled with an awareness of God's existence can and do combine and result in knowing there is something better for us, and coming to the point where we know it is not found in the things in this world. As some are discussing in this thread, many men are seeking meaning elsewhere. It's not a rare phenomenon.
  • Along with man's conscience, his reasoning abilities though infected as his conscience is, are still functional to the degree God is perfectly and intimately aware of. The hardening of the heart is a process based in continuing rejection of God and I don't see it as automatic for all men. I've read from and spoken to men who through reasoning came to faith in Christ. Please notice I said "came to..." This is not meant to be isolated from my "Firstly" statement above. None of these points are to be isolated from what God is doing to make His Son clear to men.
  • And so on... Always much to discuss.

You are aware that the conscience of man is one the faculties of his heart? If so, explain to me just how well the conscience can function in these kinds of hearts, please:

Gen 6:5
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
NIV

And,

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
ESV

Evidently, you think you do, so please educate.

And,

Isa 1:5-6
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness —
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
NIV

So, this inquiring mind is dying to know how natural man's dismally pathetic spiritual condition can, nevertheless, produce sound mind, conscience, passions and will to make good spiritual choices, apart from the power of God's grace.

 

[studier]

ou are aware that the conscience of man

I'm still waiting for you to explain how and why those who disagree with Calvin do so in "PRIDE."

Explain or retract or move on to someone else.

 

[studier]

We obviously disagree on the severity of the effect sin had on mankind. I'm just trying to find out why. Thus, my questions.

And I'd like you to explain how and why you think we disagree on the severity of the effect sin had on mankind. Will you explain why you think this?

 

[HeIsHere]

Are you disagreeing with something(s) I said, or seeking more information?

Here Augustine has the answer,

The corruption of our nature, or the loss of our free will, Augustine credited to the original sin of Adam. Augustine said that the “free choice of the will was present in that man who was the first to be formed… But after he sinned by that free will, we who have descended from his progeny have been plunged into necessity.”[52] “By Adam’s transgression, the freedom of’ the human will has been completely lost.”[53] “By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God.” And finally he said, “by subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right” and “the freedom to abstain from sin has been lost as a punishment of sin.”[54]
Link

It should be noted prior to this gnosticism entering via Augustine the early church fathers did not believe this....

 

[Genez]

What do you suppose happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned? How were they separated from God? Why did they hide? Why did they feel the need to cover themselves? What is the source of their shame and fear? Did they have these emotions before? What changed that they experienced them now? Did God change or did something in them change?

Why did they cover themselves?

.....

My pastor was an expert exegetical teacher of the Hebrew text.
He taught that when we read in Genesis 3:11 ... "who told you you're naked? "
He stated simply that the Hebrew translated more accurately should be rendered as...

"who denounced you that you are naked?" ​

My pastor did not suggest as to what that could mean, other than state that is what the Hebrew indicates.

Later on it dawned on me.
Who was in the Garden with Adam and the woman?
Satan!

Satan had been hating their blissful and peaceful lives prior to their fall.
Until they fell he could not hurt them.

Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." Genesis 2:25​

Their joyful innocence disgusted the evil malcontent heart of Satan.
The first thing Satan did once they fell?
Was to stomp on their innocence with a guilt trip, about being naked, that has stuck with us ever since.
Its why the world teaches us that sex is a dirty thing. And, induces fallen man into distorting sex into
something God never intended it to be for man and woman.

For it says, they hid themselves, and quickly covered themselves in shame!

This thought may prove to be helpful for some of our understanding of Genesis 3:11.

grace and peace ......

 

[studier]

Here Augustine has the answer,

These things and more that have been passed down and made foundational in traditions are why I separated from the traditions. I do read mostly exegetical articles and I do listen to or read teachings periodically but try to do so from more of a critical and emptied slate while maintaining the only foundation = Christ.

It's really just at this point and simply, what does the Word say and mean and no matter the accusations I'm rested in Christ in Spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

And I'd like you to explain how and why you think we disagree on the severity of the effect sin had on mankind. Will you explain why you think this?

The post I responded to is the reason directly, but also my general impression of the tenor of your posts throughout the thread. While I do believe you are correct that Romans 1 says the existence of God can be known intuitively through nature and conscience, it's a far cry from knowledge about God to knowledge of God. The former is gained through the intellect, and the latter through actual experience. From what I have read, you seem to believe that intellectual assent is sufficient for salvation. I do not.
One example of this is the attendance of repentance in the process of salvation. Man is capable of sorrow apart from God, but his sorrow will still be self-centered. He is truly sorrowful over sin, but not because he has offended a holy God. He sorrows over his fate. It is a Godly sorrow, a sorrow that is produced by God Himself, that works repentance. This is a real and experiential part of true salvation. And this is absent when someone simply makes a choice or a decision to believe.

 

[Cameron143]

Why did they cover themselves?

.....

My pastor was an expert exegetical teacher of the Hebrew text.
He taught that when we read in Genesis 3:11 ... "who told you you're naked? "
He stated simply that the Hebrew translated more accurately should be rendered as...

"who denounced you that you are naked?" ​

My pastor did not suggest as to what that could mean, other than state that is what the Hebrew indicates.

Later on it dawned on me.
Who was in the Garden with Adam and the woman?
Satan!

Satan had been hating their blissful and peaceful lives prior to their fall.
Until they fell he could not hurt them.

Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." Genesis 2:25​

Their joyful innocence disgusted the evil malcontent heart of Satan.
The first thing Satan did once they fell?
Was to stomp on their innocence with a guilt trip, about being naked, that has stuck with us ever since.
Its why the world teaches us that sex is a dirty thing. And, induces fallen man into distorting sex into
something God never intended it to be for man and woman.

For it says, they hid themselves, and quickly covered themselves in shame!

This thought may prove to be helpful for some of our understanding of Genesis 3:11.

grace and peace ......

While this could have been the case, and I appreciate what you have shared, I think knowing good and evil was the cause. Before that, they had only known what was good.

 

[HeIsHere]

why I separated from the traditions.

Agree, and make no mistake this is an Augustinian belief system is ubiquitous in the churches.

I do listen to or read teachings periodically but try to do so from more of a critical and emptied slate while maintaining the only foundation = Christ.

Agree, if the scripture is not read with the character of Christ in mind might as well stop right there.
"Your faith has saved you" who would have thought Jesus making this declaration, the women placed her faith in Him is a problem.
Let's find a way to explain it away.

It's really just at this point and simply, what does the Word say and mean and no matter the accusations I'm rested in Christ in Spirit.

Agree,
If one starts with any Augustinian concepts one will by necessity have to rely on the teachings of men to put it all together, if one the other hand one starts with the person of Christ Jesus, rightly dividing, His spirit will be your guide and scripture becomes cohesive and God does not become morally ambivelent choosing some to give salvation leaving others in their sin when He could have changed the hearts of each and every person throughout history.

There is never any good answer for that except for He is sovereign and choosing some is mercy when He did not have to have mercy on anyone.
Does that line up with Christ Jesus, No it does not.

Notice the scrpture rarely employed by the TULIP promoters.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

English Standard Version
...who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Oh right the natural man can only reject even though God commands the opposite.

 

[Cameron143]

Agree, and make no mistake this is an Augustinian belief system is ubiquitous in the churches.



Agree, if the scripture is not read with the character of Christ in mind might as well stop right there.
"Your faith has saved you" who would have thought Jesus making this declaration, the women placed her faith in Him is a problem.
Let's find a way to explain it away.



Agree,
If one starts with any Augustinian concepts one will by necessity have to rely on the teachings of men to put it all together, if one the other hand one starts with the person of Christ Jesus, rightly dividing, His spirit will be your guide and scripture becomes cohesive and God does not become morally ambivelent choosing some to give salvation leaving others in their sin when He could have changed the hearts of each and every person throughout history.

There is never any good answer for that except for He is sovereign and choosing some is mercy when He did not have to have mercy on anyone.
Does that line up with Christ Jesus, No it does not.

Notice the scrpture rarely employed by the TULIP promoters.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

English Standard Version
...who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Oh right the natural man can only reject even though God commands the opposite.

Jesus says love one another as I have loved you. Can you do this?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Not only that.

Being resisted, grieved and quenched by BELIEVERS!

That explains a lot as to why we see such discord and false teachings in Christian forums...

Just tossing this into the mix here.

One of the proponents of quenching the Spirit is to not obey what the Spirit is telling us to do. First of all, the Spirit confirms everything Jesus did, said, put into place...the Great Commission. If you follow the idealism that God has predestined those to be saved then you won't even try to be a soul winner. In fact, when you are somewhere and run into a stranger, a "Divine Appointment" has been arranged and the Spirit will say to you to share Jesus with this person. And following such a doctrine you many times would never do it, hence it's a works. But that simple disobedience to not share Christ is one of the best examples of [quenching the Spirit] by those claiming to follow Christ.

It's actually a works of iniquity to refuse to share Jesus to others when the Spirit commands us to do it.

 

[studier]

The post I responded to is the reason directly, but also my general impression of the tenor of your posts throughout the thread. While I do believe you are correct that Romans 1 says the existence of God can be known intuitively through nature and conscience, it's a far cry from knowledge about God to knowledge of God. The former is gained through the intellect, and the latter through actual experience. From what I have read, you seem to believe that intellectual assent is sufficient for salvation. I do not.

As I recall, there was some discussion re: knowing God already. To proceed to the end here, a few things:

• Rom1 that has been so heavily discussed uses several words for what God has made clear about Himself in men. Just in the knowledge side of things Paul says they know, they perceive, they understand (which is rooted in a word that means to put things together in the mind). They know, they reason, they perceive/discern, God has made it clear. While you may understandably refer to this as intellectual assent, I hope you wouldn't do so to limit what is vitally clear in all men.
• Re: actual experience: The word Paul uses in Rom1:28 where he says these rejecters did not value having God in knowledge is a compound word that intensifies the concept of knowledge. FWIW, after studying this word in every instance in the Bible and reading how others have come to understand it, my conclusion is that it means experiential/practical knowledge - knowledge about God to be used in life.
  • In the close context of 1:28 we can see how Paul is speaking of how the God rejecters live experientially.
  • In the LXX 1Kings7:14 it's used to translate a Hebrew word that in context means technical knowledge, ability.

So, I see knowledge and experiential knowledge made clear to men.

I don't use phrases like intellectual assent apart from defining them. And I don't blindly accept discussions about heart vs. head knowledge which I've mostly heard in very simplistic teachings.

I do see knowledge of truth gained through hearing and learning as essential for Biblical Faith/Obedience.

Your other point in a bit.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I don't blindly accept discussions about heart vs. head knowledge which I've mostly heard in very simplistic teachings.

So, the airport analogy for us simpletons is not valid for referring to how faith works?:

I 'see' the plane and [ intellectually ] know in my mind that it is real and it should be able to get me to my destination. However, until I actually have faith to "get on board" and trust [ in my heart? ] my life into the hands of the pilot, I will not "get to my destination", eh?

Amen.

 

[Cameron143]

As I recall, there was some discussion re: knowing God already. To proceed to the end here, a few things:

• Rom1 that has been so heavily discussed uses several words for what God has made clear about Himself in men. Just in the knowledge side of things Paul says they know, they perceive, they understand (which is rooted in a word that means to put things together in the mind). They know, they reason, they perceive/discern, God has made it clear. While you may understandably refer to this as intellectual assent, I hope you wouldn't do so to limit what is vitally clear in all men.
• Re: actual experience: The word Paul uses in Rom1:28 where he says these rejecters did not value having God in knowledge is a compound word that intensifies the concept of knowledge. FWIW, after studying this word in every instance in the Bible and reading how others have come to understand it, my conclusion is that it means experiential/practical knowledge - knowledge about God to be used in life.
  • In the close context of 1:28 we can see how Paul is speaking of how the God rejecters live experientially.
  • In the LXX 1Kings7:14 it's used to translate a Hebrew word that in context means technical knowledge, ability.

So, I see knowledge and experiential knowledge made clear to men.

I don't use phrases like intellectual assent apart from defining them. And I don't blindly accept discussions about heart vs. head knowledge which I've mostly heard in very simplistic teachings.

I do see knowledge of truth gained through hearing and learning as essential for Biblical Faith/Obedience.

Your other point in a bit.

You misunderstood my point about knowledge that is experiential. I'm not referring to how God rejecters live out their experiences. I'm referring to an actual and intimate experience of God Himself. God went personally to find Adam and speak with him. God went on walks with Enoch. God went specifically to Noah and Abraham. God came personally to Paul. Jesus lived in the midst of His disciples. And God continues to come to His people today. Do you think having poured out the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost that God now neglects to come? He is coming to more now than He ever has. This is the experience I am referring to. And whether I use the term intellectual assent or any other, all the terms that would describe what men may know from Romans 1 fall short of this coming of God to an individual. And it is this coming of God to an individual that is the substance of knowing God that is mentioned in John 17:3 as well as the substance of salvation.
This is what I am referring to.

 

[MerSee]

You misunderstood my point about knowledge that is experiential. I'm not referring to how God rejecters live out their experiences. I'm referring to an actual and intimate experience of God Himself. God went personally to find Adam and speak with him. God went on walks with Enoch. God went specifically to Noah and Abraham. God came personally to Paul. Jesus lived in the midst of His disciples. And God continues to come to His people today. Do you think having poured out the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost that God now neglects to come? He is coming to more now than He ever has. This is the experience I am referring to. And whether I use the term intellectual assent or any other, all the terms that would describe what men may know from Romans 1 fall short of this coming of God to an individual. And it is this coming of God to an individual that is the substance of knowing God that is mentioned in John 17:3 as well as the substance of salvation.
This is what I am referring to.

God will never ultimately come for those who are not of the elect.

 

[Cameron143]

God will never ultimately come for those who are not of the elect.

Okay

 

[HeIsHere]

God will never ultimately come for those who are not of the elect.

Completely transparent about what you believe.
Much appreciated.

 

[studier]

So, the airport analogy for us simpletons is not valid for referring to how faith works?:

I 'see' the plane and [ intellectually ] know in my mind that it is real and it should be able to get me to my destination. However, until I actually have faith to "get on board" and trust [ in my heart? ] my life into the hands of the pilot, I will not "get to my destination", eh?

Amen.

Not my cup of tea...

I prefer to put the effort into defining Biblical Faith in God and that analogy misses one of the most important points about Biblical Faith, among others. I work and try to let Scripture define as much of my terminology as I can get from Him.

 

[Genez]

While this could have been the case, and I appreciate what you have shared, I think knowing good and evil was the cause. Before that, they had only known what was good.

Before they fell they could not know good and evil.

But, after they fell? They had no teachings yet as to what constitutes something be good or evil
They had to learn like little children have to learn from adults not to run out in the street with traffic.

When fallen they became vulnerable and very sensitive to Satan's EVIL directed towards them.
THEN! Only after they fell? Satan projected evil onto them!

Before they fell? If Satan screamed at them that being naked was shameful?
They would have not understood, and wondered what this odd spirit in the Garden was talking about.

Before they fell? Satan could say any evil he wanted about them, and they would have shrugged it off like water off a duck's back.

Careful... It says "knowledge" of good and evil....
We need to be taught what is good, and what is evil.
Knowing what good and evil is happens after being shown what is good. And, what is evil.

That is why Moses gave the Law.
So men could learn what is good to be doing.
And learn what is evil to be avoided.

grace and peace ..............

 

[Genez]

Just tossing this into the mix here.

One of the proponents of quenching the Spirit is to not obey what the Spirit is telling us to do. First of all, the Spirit confirms everything Jesus did, said, put into place...the Great Commission. If you follow the idealism that God has predestined those to be saved then you won't even try to be a soul winner. In fact, when you are somewhere and run into a stranger, a "Divine Appointment" has been arranged and the Spirit will say to you to share Jesus with this person. And following such a doctrine you many times would never do it, hence it's a works. But that simple disobedience to not share Christ is one of the best examples of [quenching the Spirit] by those claiming to follow Christ.

It's actually a works of iniquity to refuse to share Jesus to others when the Spirit commands us to do it.

Grieving the Spirit is refusing to do what God's Word tells us.
Quenching is like telling the Holy Spirit to shut up and that you do not even want to hear what He has to say.

Grieving the Spirit introduces us to discovering what God's discipline is like.
Quenching the Spirit for too long causes believers to discover what the sin onto death is like.

In Christ ...............