Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

The how come this Universal High Priest for "BOTH groups" didn't pray for both in John 17? He died for all, but isn't the High Priest for all?

And the "everyone" in in Heb 2:9 is qualified by the "many sons" he is bringing to glory in the next verse.

He died for all to make all "His property."
Until He died for all?
Unbelievers were Satan's property.

John 8:44​

​

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. ​

He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, ​

because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own ​

resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.​

​

He died for all, to remove the adoptive ownership by Satan to be transferred to Himself,
as to destroy what He owns, those who have chosen for themselves to be defective. Evil unrighteousness.
Other wise? When in the Lord's court? They could blame Satan for what they will be condemned for.


grace and peace .............

 

[Cameron143]

That they lack discernment and understanding is shown again and again in the things they say.
They being more than one person... who cannot understand plain and simple things, and even
contradict the things they say. Please don't insult me but I will continue to insult you, please
don't use the NIV, as I will never accept it, but here I am going to cite exclusively from the NIV,
oh why bother making those long posts of yours I am not going to read them, but here is
another long post from me. On and on it goes.

My personal favorite is context, context, context. Not that context isn't of course important. My problem is that one's context for a particular passage is always found in the greater context of the particular chapter, which is found in the context of the particular book, which is found in the context of all the writings of a particular writer, which is found in the context of whole of the Bible.
I think sometimes the forest is missed for all the trees.

 

[HeIsHere]

This video may help some who get confused and feel manipulated by some who post here having a form of non divine self confidence....

Yes I have wondered about this, excellent video.
The only thing one can do with people who have these personality disorders is stay away.

There are a few of them at my work as well, (one clinically diagnosed), the behaviour patterns are something to observe.
..."wants admiration and deeply held feelings of inferiority" ... spot on!

 

[HeIsHere]

My personal favorite is context, context, context. Not that context isn't of course important. My problem is that one's context for a particular passage is always found in the greater context of the particular chapter, which is found in the context of the particular book, which is found in the context of all the writings of a particular writer, which is found in the context of whole of the Bible.
I think sometimes the forest is missed for all the trees.

Context is extremely important, foundational when reading, understanding and interpreting any and all text.

Context determines meaning. Full stop!

 

[HeIsHere]

I find it necessary to comment on this attachment lest someone who is new to the faith or just plain too busy or lazy to test this teaching presented in the attachment.

Is it indeed the case that God is commanding people to obey Him, is angry that they don't, punishes people for their disobedience, while all this time God could have given them the gift of faith and repentance? God is angry at himself.

I challenge anyone to look up the references mentioned in this attachment, read the chapters involved and see if you come to the same conclusion as the Reformed Sage

Perfect!

Yeah, this system falls short in a multiplicities of ways, God angry at Himself, God mocking people telling them to believe while all the while knowing they cannot unless He gives them a new heart, or the gift of belief to believe.

 

[Magenta]

My personal favorite is context, context, context. Not that context isn't of course important. My problem is
that one's context for a particular passage is always found in the greater context of the particular chapter,
which is found in the context of the particular book, which is found in the context of all the writings of a
particular writer, which is found in the context of whole of the Bible.
I think sometimes the forest is missed for all the trees.

It seems the simplicity of Christ is lost on some. They favour boasting in themselves.

 

[HeIsHere]

Perfect!! You just proved every atheist's argument to be true. The Bible is full of flaws, contradictions and makes no sense. On top of that, God is cruel. Great job. You just proved them right.

Yup.

"Your faith has saved you"
He did not say, the faith I gave you saved you.

Calvinist >> "Jesus did not say that but that is what He meant."

 

[Cameron143]

Context is extremely important, foundational when reading, understanding and interpreting any and all text.

Context determines meaning. Full stop!

Read the post again. I never said any different. You are so ready to disagree that you disagree with things you agree with.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah, this system falls short in a multiplicities of ways, God angry at Himself, God mocking people telling them to believe while all the while knowing they cannot unless He gives them a new heart, or the gift of belief to believe.

Romans 11:32

Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[HeIsHere]

Read the post again. I never said any different. You are so ready to disagree that you disagree with things you agree with.

You actually did say something different.
My point is context is not "important" as in it adds value, context is the very manner in which anything is read.
It is not one of several factors it is the underpinning of all interpretation.

 

[Cameron143]

You actually did say something different.
My point is context is not "important" as in it adds value, context is the very manner in which anything is read.
It is not one of several factors it is the underpinning of all interpretation.

Context isn't the only consideration to understanding the meaning of scripture. The understanding of language, how God makes use of language, figurative language, and revelation also have to be considered. Try understanding the book of Revelation with context alone.

 

[Magenta]

You actually did say something different.
My point is context is not "important" as in it adds value, context is the very manner in which anything is read.
It is not one of several factors it is the underpinning of all interpretation.

Still missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Genez]

Context isn't the only consideration to understanding the meaning of scripture. The understanding of language, how God makes use of language, figurative language, and revelation also have to be considered. Try understanding the book of Revelation with context alone.

Before all else?

Know the Context!

Otherwise?

Matthew 5:29​

​

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; ​

for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, ​

than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

We will have many believers plucking out their right eye otherwise...
.......

 

[Cameron143]

Before all else?

Know the Context!

Otherwise?

Matthew 5:29​

​

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; ​

for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, ​

than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

We will have many believers plucking out their right eye otherwise...
.......

There is an immediate context and several greater contexts. This was the point I was making. The immediate context will always agree with the greater context.
Some seem to think that comparing scripture with scripture isn't context.

 

[studier]

My personal favorite is context, context, context. Not that context isn't of course important. My problem is that one's context for a particular passage is always found in the greater context of the particular chapter, which is found in the context of the particular book, which is found in the context of all the writings of a particular writer, which is found in the context of whole of the Bible.
I think sometimes the forest is missed for all the trees.

Examples?

 

[studier]

There is an immediate context and several greater contexts. This was the point I was making. The immediate context will always agree with the greater context.
Some seem to think that comparing scripture with scripture isn't context.

Examples?

 

[Genez]

There is an immediate context and several greater contexts. This was the point I was making. The immediate context will always agree with the greater context.
Some seem to think that comparing scripture with scripture isn't context.

Agreed... Comparing Scripture with Scripture is a must if one wishes to present sound doctrine.
All false teachings isolate from the full council, and spot light what they want you to believe.

In his temptation, Jesus always dragged Satan back by his nose and gave the context for what Satan was wishing to distort.

 

[Cameron143]

Examples?

Those are the examples. Pick a passage. It's in a chapter that is written to a particular audience for a specific purpose. For example, an epistle. The particular passage addresses one aspect of the entire letter's purpose. If the writer of the letter has written other letters, they will also be in agreement with whatever else they have written. And a fuller understanding can be gained from the greater context of all they have written. The same can be done with scripture as a whole.
For a practical example, one might read the book of James and conclude that works must accompany faith for salvation. Understanding that James was largely written to a Jewish audience at the beginning of the intertestimental period would lend understanding to his purpose for writing as he has. Further, comparing what he has written with later writers of this period will lend understanding to his purpose. Still further, understanding its context in all of the Bible and God's plan of redemption and the manner in which God has done so throughout history offers even greater insight into the passage.

 

[studier]

Those are the examples. Pick a passage. It's in a chapter that is written to a particular audience for a specific purpose. For example, an epistle. The particular passage addresses one aspect of the entire letter's purpose. If the writer of the letter has written other letters, they will also be in agreement with whatever else they have written. And a fuller understanding can be gained from the greater context of all they have written. The same can be done with scripture as a whole.
For a practical example, one might read the book of James and conclude that works must accompany faith for salvation. Understanding that James was largely written to a Jewish audience at the beginning of the intertestimental period would lend understanding to his purpose for writing as he has. Further, comparing what he has written with later writers of this period will lend understanding to his purpose. Still further, understanding its context in all of the Bible and God's plan of redemption and the manner in which God has done so throughout history offers even greater insight into the passage.

Sorry, I thought you were speaking of the thread. Good explanation though.

 

[Rufus]

Mr. Studer wrote:
John 14:17

What the purpose of all this?

I've been told in an open forum and thus others have been told that John 14:17 tells us the the Jews, OT saints - had or were influenced by the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17 does not tell us this.
John 14:17 is not speaking about OT saints - Jews - Israel. John 14:17 is speaking about the Apostles of Jesus Christ who were in the room with Jesus Christ at the last Passover meal before He was crucified.
Jesus said the Helper/the Spirit of Truth stays/is staying with the Apostles and will be in them
Jesus referred to those outside that room as "the world" that is not able to receive this Helper/Spirit of Truth because it does not see or know it/Him.
To apply this to anyone outside the room requires different or more Scripture.
At best I'd consider the application to other believers at the time.
There are a few ways to classify these present tense verbs re: the world not seeing or knowing this Helper/Spirit of Truth who Jesus has not yet asked for but who may well in a sense be already staying alongside the Apostles and will be in them in the future.
For me, FWIW, I'm continually wrestling with how time is at times seemingly irrelevant to Jesus and how there really is no ultimate distinction between the members of the Godhead. Jesus may very well be saying the other Helper/Spirit of Truth is was staying alongside the Apostles at that time because He - Jesus - the Helper/the Spirit of Truth - or He with the Spirit was staying alongside the Apostles at that time.
John's writings are well known to leave us with these types of considerations

Apologies for any typos as I'm not proofreading for them.

(cut to save space)

If you were more self-aware of your proclivity for long-winded fluff posts, you'd be apologizing instead for causing the possible death of some poor, unsuspecting reader due to acute boredom. But the good news is that your posts have given me an idea that they might well be useful for curing chronic cases of insomnia. I'm thinking of shipping some of your tomes off to John Hopkins or some other medical research facility so doctors can perform controlled lab tests. I might actually get rich off of you.

What follows is my short list that speaks to the conspicuous presence of the Holy Spirit in the OT, and most particularly to the prominent historical role He played in in the lives of God's covenant people. This list is by no means exhaustive but it serves the purpose to prove that the Holy Spirit was most assuredly "with" God's chosen covenant people in the same way he was with Christ's disciples prior to the Cross and Pentecost.

Moreover, it's clear that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the greatest among the OT prophets. Who else could Jesus have been implicitly comparing him to after the 400+ silent years that extended from Malachi to Christ's first advent (Lk 7:26-28)?

And what's with the inane question you asked about Judas, as though he presented some kind of problem? If you knew your bible, you'd know that the Spirit of the Lord in the OT was not necessarily given as a permanent influence to God's OC people, as He is to His NC people. Since Judas betrayed Christ, became possessed by the devil and hanged himself all prior to the Cross, then the Spirit very likely departed from him to make way for Satan's influence -- following the OT pattern. "Problem" solved! Below is the list.

1. Spirit Breathed Life into Adam (Gen 2:7)

2. The Spirit Departed from Adam (logically inferred) on the day he sinned and died spiritually (Gen 2:17)

3. The Spirit was recognized and acknowledged by men (Gen 41:38)

4. The Spirit Strove with Sinners (Gen 6:3)

5. The Spirit Gave Special Ability to Select Individuals (Ex 31:1-3; 35:30-31)

6. The Spirit Came Upon Israel's 70 Elders (Num 11:25-29)

7. The Spirit Gave Extraordinary Powers to God's Leaders, Prophets and Judges (Josha, cp Num 27:18; Othniel, Judg 3:9-10; Gideon, Jud 6:34; Jephthah, Jud 11:29; Samson, Jud 14:5-6; Saul, 1Sam 10:9-13)

8. The Spirit Departed from Disobedient Saul (1Sam 16:14)

9. The Spirit Departed from Unfaithful Samson (Jud 16:20)

10. The Spirit Protected David from king Saul (1Sam 19:20-21)

11. The Spirit Inspired King David (2Sam 23:2)

12. The Spirit Came Upon David's Mighty Men (1Chron 12:18)

13. The (S)pirit of Elijah was given to his Successor Elisha (2Ki 2:9-15).

14. King David Prayed that the Spirit not be Taken from Him (Ps 51:11)

15. The Spirit Guided the Prophets (Ezek 2:2)

16. The Spirit Inspired Holiness (Ps 143:10)

17. The Spirit Instructed God's Covenant People (Neh 9:20)

18. As Water is Poured out on Thirsty Ground, so God Poured his Spirit out on Israel's Offspring (Isa 44:1-3).

19. The Spirit was Grieved by God's Covenant people (Isa 63:10)

20. The Spirit Guided His Covenant People Into the Promised Land (Isa 63:11-14)

21. The Spirit was Among the Post-Babylonian Exiles who Rebuilt the Temple (Hag 2:3-5)

22. The Spirit Came Upon Zechariah (2Chron24:20)

23. The Lord Promised Zerubbabel Victory Over His Enemies by His Spirit (Zech 4:6)

24. The Spirit was "WITH" John the Baptist in a Very Special Way even Before Birth (Lk 1:15)

25. John the Baptist also had Elihah's "(S)pirit and Power" (Lk 1:17)

26. The Spirit, too, was "WITH" Elizabeth (Lk 1:41)

27. The Spirit Lived With Christ's Disciples (Jn 14:17)

Now that you think you have mastered Koine Greek, I would suggest that you make becoming acquainted with the bible your next mission in life. No reasonable person can deduce from the OT that the Holy Spirit didn't play a very significant role in the lives of God's covenant people -- being "with" them every step of the way right up to the Cross and Pentecost.