Loss of salvation???

[Lamar]

Yesterday.
Now answer my questions.

Since both your questions are loaded I will attempt to answer them as best I can.

How is one unborn? You can not be unborn hence the nonsensical nature of the question.

How can you be separated from the love of God? The same way Esau was separated and Jacob was not.

Okay now how about this one...Were you a married bachelor when you stopped beating your wife?

 

[NightTwister]

The same way Esau was separated and Jacob was not.

"...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue..."
You have to read the whole thing.

 

[wwjdmichael101]

I think "only begotten" refers to Jesus becoming a human being. He was not created, but created everything. He did not come into being because He always existed. But He did become a man, and He was not always a man. I wonder if having this point of view makes people think I'm heretical since some believe He was always the Son of our Heavenly Father.

The question of whether Jesus has always been the Son of God is a fascinating and complex theological subject. The term “only begotten” is derived from the Greek word “monogenes,” which signifies that Jesus is uniquely the Son of God in a way that no other being is.

I hope the perspective I am about to give is received with respect and consideration, as it is not my intention to provoke harsh criticism. I hold the belief that Jesus has not always been the Son of God, although I firmly believe that He is the third person of the Trinity, has always existed, and has always been God. My understanding is that Jesus did not always exist as a human; rather, He was born into this world as a baby and grew up just like any other human being. This is a fact clearly taught in the Bible, particularly in the narrative of His birth.

Some theologians argue that Jesus has always been the Son of God, eternally begotten by the Father, a concept known as the “eternal generation of the Son.” This view maintains that Jesus, as the second person of the Trinity, has always existed in a subordinate relationship to the Father, even before His incarnation.

Others, like myself ,propose that Jesus became the Son of God at a specific point in time, such as His birth, baptism, resurrection, or ascension. For example, the angel’s announcement to Mary in Luke 1:35 indicates that Jesus was called the Son of God at His birth.

My belief that Jesus has always existed as the third person of the Trinity but became the Son of God at His incarnation is supported by various scriptural passages and theological arguments. It is important to recognize that these discussions are part of a broader theological exploration, and differing views can coexist within the Christian faith.

 

[Cameron143]

Since both your questions are loaded I will attempt to answer them as best I can.

How is one unborn? You can not be unborn hence the nonsensical nature of the question.

How can you be separated from the love of God? The same way Esau was separated and Jacob was not.

Okay now how about this one...Were you a married bachelor when you stopped beating your wife?

Can you define married bachelor for me? I'm unfamiliar with the term.
Natural birth is a picture to help us understand spiritual birth. The fact that it cannot be undone is one of the lessons.
And what makes you think Esau ever experienced the love of God?

 

[Magenta]

Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift He gave us who believed in the Lord
Jesus Christ, who was I to hinder the work of God?” When they heard this, their objections were put to
rest, and they glorified God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

 

[Lamar]

"...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue..."
You have to read the whole thing.

I have read the "whole thing".

What part of these verses makes you think that Esau did not deserve the "hate" of God?

Did not Esau give away his birthright feely?

Did he not show contempt for his birthright?

Did Jacob not desire the birthright?

Did he not express value for the birthright?

It seems an omniscient God would judge wisely between the two.

 

[Lamar]

Can you define married bachelor for me? I'm unfamiliar with the term.

Its a nonsensical answer to your nonsensical question.

Natural birth is a picture to help us understand spiritual birth. The fact that it cannot be undone is one of the lessons.

There are many things that can be "undone". Having your name blotted out of the "Book of Life" is one.

And what makes you think Esau ever experienced the love of God?

All of creation has experienced the love of God, even Esau.

 

[NightTwister]

I have read the "whole thing".

What part of these verses makes you think that Esau did not deserve the "hate" of God?

Did not Esau give away his birthright feely?

Did he not show contempt for his birthright?

Did Jacob not desire the birthright?

Did he not express value for the birthright?

It seems an omniscient God would judge wisely between the two.

You still didn't read it.

 

[Cameron143]

Its a nonsensical answer to your nonsensical question.

There are many things that can be "undone". Having your name blotted out of the "Book of Life" is one.
All of creation has experienced the love of God, even Esau.

But not the love of God in Christ Jesus. It cannot be undone.

 

[Lamar]

You still didn't read it.

Well...NightTwister you really know how to prove a point.

 

[Lamar]

But not the love of God in Christ Jesus. It cannot be undone.

OHHHH...that love. Never mind.
I thought we were talking about the love of God, not the love of God in Christ Jesus.

My bad.

 

[Cameron143]

OHHHH...that love. Never mind.
I thought we were talking about the love of God, not the love of God in Christ Jesus.

My bad.

Glad you have a sense of humor. Kudos to you.

 

[Chaps]

Dwell on? So, you think I live on a particular subject just because I'm currently considering the implications of biblical meanings? sheesh. Anyway, Tanks for the answer, which was something like, "don't even think about it." Right?
That only causes me to wonder why you wouldn't want me to even mention it... is it a wrench fallen into the cogs? hmm

I dont think you read my response very closely. I said that the firstborn references to Christ have to do with his status as heir (firstborn in ancient times was the primary heir of the father’s estate) and not as his being “begotten“ in the sense of coming into existence.

 

[Chaps]

I think "only begotten" refers to Jesus becoming a human being. He was not created, but created everything. He did not come into being because He always existed. But He did become a man, and He was not always a man. I wonder if having this point of view makes people think I'm heretical since some believe He was always the Son of our Heavenly Father.

I agree he was not always “the Son” and the begotten is also referencing his incarnation. Prior to the incarnation he is referred to as “the Word.” However, I think the primary meaning refers to him being the heir.

 

[Chaps]

Dwell on? So, you think I live on a particular subject just because I'm currently considering the implications of biblical meanings? sheesh. Anyway, Tanks for the answer, which was something like, "don't even think about it." Right?
That only causes me to wonder why you wouldn't want me to even mention it... is it a wrench fallen into the cogs? hmm

Id also add, I wasn’t trying to be disparaging. I just thought it was a strange turn in the conversation. Most cults tend to focus on the nature of Christ and turning away from the historic Christian view on the issue (i.e. man or angel, not God, one of many gods/brother of Satan, etc.)

 

[Mem]

I think "only begotten" refers to Jesus becoming a human being. He was not created, but created everything. He did not come into being because He always existed. But He did become a man, and He was not always a man. I wonder if having this point of view makes people think I'm heretical since some believe He was always the Son of our Heavenly Father.

As I understand it, in natural terms anyway (which I don't believe would be entirely irrelevant) one isn't begotten until another bears them to a one that begets.

 

[Mem]

Id also add, I wasn’t trying to be disparaging. I just thought it was a strange turn in the conversation. Most cults tend to focus on the nature of Christ and turning away from the historic Christian view on the issue (i.e. man or angel, not God, one of many gods/brother of Satan, etc.)

Not that I always succeed, but I do try to give others the benefit of the doubt, that is, if there is even just a hint of doubt I offer full benefit of it so, please don't sweat it, I didn't take it disparagingly. I understand the environment in which we are communicating in is susceptible to the roam of cult members. I did entertain some conversations with visiting JWs and LDSs also, but the conversation usually, er no, not usually but unfailingly, came to an impasse upon that particular subject.

 

[Mem]

I dont think you read my response very closely. I said that the firstborn references to Christ have to do with his status as heir (firstborn in ancient times was the primary heir of the father’s estate) and not as his being “begotten“ in the sense of coming into existence.

Thanks for the clarification, I might've dismissed that statement seeing that I agreed it likely has something to do with the firstborn being heir, or receiving a double portion, although I was thinking more about the aspect of the firstborn's dedication, firstfruits (i.e. the tithe?) to God. '
I guess it's my artsy tendency to try and capture every facet of a picture, even though not even a camera can actually do that.

 

[Mem]

I did entertain some conversations with visiting JWs and LDSs also, but the conversation usually, er no, not usually but unfailingly, came to an impasse upon that particular subject.

oh, and this was loooong, long ago.

 

[Chaps]

Thanks for the clarification, I might've dismissed that statement seeing that I agreed it likely has something to do with the firstborn being heir, or receiving a double portion, although I was thinking more about the aspect of the firstborn's dedication, firstfruits (i.e. the tithe?) to God. '
I guess it's my artsy tendency to try and capture every facet of a picture, even though not even a camera can actually do that.

Yeah, i hear you. Obviously some of this stuff is beyond our comprehension. I just brought it up because some were trying to use the 1:1 correlation of physical realities exactly describing spiritual realities. I thought this was a good example of that. Clearly “firstborn“ in reference to Jesus is not an exact relationship to what we think of when we think of a child that is “firstborn” or “begotten.” So, the idea of being “dead in sins” or “born again” is not an exact relationship to physical death or physical birth. Here are a few verses that make it clear that Jesus being “begotten“ is not referencing his preincarnate state as being another created being as some cults claim:

Hebrews 1:1–4 (ESV): Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

John 1:1 (ESV):
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Colossians 1:15–16 (ESV): 5 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV): 1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:17 (ESV): 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,

Revelation 22:12–13 (ESV): 12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

John 20:27–28 (ESV): 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Hebrews 1:8
8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Isaiah 9:6 (ESV): For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Mark 2:7
7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone

1 John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life

Isaiah 45:21Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me

Many many more could be referenced. These are just a few.