Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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PaulThomson said:
Every calvinist pastor is an incredible teacher. But yet, remarkably, many do believe what they are selling.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting comment. The church I go to would certainly be considered reformed, but not Calvinistic. We preach Christ, and Him crucified. When people can't make distinctions about others well and can only speak in terms of generalities and categories, it is generally because they lack both discernment and love.
You spoke disparagingly about a very wonderful man who you have never met. You made false insinuations concerning him. Just awesome.
 
PaulThomson said:
Every calvinist pastor is an incredible teacher. But yet, remarkably, many do believe what they are selling.
Click to expand...


https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/canons-of-dort/

Reformed Churches of America


Article 6: God’s Eternal Decree
The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decree. For “all his works are known to God from eternity” (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decree God graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of the elect and inclines them to believe, but by a just judgment God leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen. And in this especially is disclosed to us God’s act—unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just—of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decree of election and reprobation revealed in God’s Word. The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.
 
Genez said:
God provides.
Check here. https://rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

And, keep in mind,, please.

If you decide to order his lessons that were taught daily from the pulpit?
No money will be asked for. https://rbthieme.org/financialpolicy.html

Billy Graham once asked him to be his private mentor, but turned it down because of the heavy demand his church was expanding into.

grace and peace .........
Click to expand...


I've appreciated many of the things you've said on this thread and how you've directly stated some things..

A few comments here: RBThieme taught from the original languages within the Free Grace Dispensationalism tradition. There are also men who know the languages and are settled in the Reformed system and every other system. Although I do agree that knowledge of and teaching from the original languages can be extremely beneficial, I also know that knowing the languages in itself is no guaranty that someone can know the meaning of Scripture nor be kept from ending up in some errant system.

With that said, FWIW, I would choose a teacher that knows the languages.
 
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studier said:
I've appreciated many of the things you've said on this thread and how you've directly stated some things..

A few comments here: RBThieme taught from the original languages within the Free Grace Dispensationalism tradition. There are also men who know the languages and are settled in the Reformed system and every other system. Although I do agree that knowledge of and teaching from the original languages can be extremely beneficial, I also know that knowing the languages in itself is no guaranty that someone can know the meaning of Scripture nor be kept from ending up in some errant system.

With that said, FWIW, I would choose a teacher that knows the languages.
Click to expand...

Yes, the language as used by a variety of writers within that time period.
 
MerSee said:
for the Unjust/Nonelect/Unsaved whose names are not written in The Book of Life?

Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb
Click to expand...


During WW2 the free world armies fought for our freedom and secured its peoples liberty.

Included in with those who were secured liberty to live free?
Criminals... degenerates... child abusers... etc.

There will come another time to judge them with a different judgment.
In the mean while, while free to do so, they are now free to repent and change.

Likewise...
Jesus died for the world and secured the payment for the sins of the world.
Included in with those who's penalty for sin was paid for?
Criminals... degenerates... child abusers... etc.

Anyone going to Hell will not be condemned for their sins.
There will be only one reason for their condemnation.
Rejection of God as seen by their rejection of Jesus Christ.


He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world.
​
1 John 2:2​


.
 
For those whose more recent posts (between 10am and 3pm US Mountain Time Zone today) in this thread were lost, my apologies. I, unfortunately had to purge the mess that two users decided to plaster over 10 pages of this thread and in the process probably inadvertently ended up removing post that could have remained.
 
Discussing the Free Will of man

First mentioned - Greek Haireō: to choose

Haireō: Defining it

Haireō: NC Scriptures:

Search of the New Covenant Scriptures (only NC for now) for Greek haireō and some observations about man’s ability to choose:

NKJ Phil. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
  • A little context:
    • Phil. 1:21-25 NKJ 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
  • Some observations:
    • Paul is speaking of making a choice:
      • A choice between living here in flesh or dying and departing to be with Christ.
      • He says he is hard-pressed between the 2 choices
      • He says he has a desire to be with Christ and says it is far better than living here in flesh.
      • He then decides that remaining here in flesh is more needful for his audience than is his personal desire to die and depart.
      • He says he has been and is convinced and has known and knows that he will remain and continue with his audience for their progress and joy of the faith
  • A summary depiction:
    • Have information > have choices > struggle of desire vs. need > convinced & know > choice
  • Comments & Thoughts:
    • The concept of Free Will is mostly a philosophical discussion spanning millennia.
    • There's not much use discussing it if the ones having the discussion are not willing to define what they mean by Free Will
    • There are some who simply say there is no such thing as Free Will but who will not define what they mean by it and depart the conversation.
    • There are some who say there is no such thing as Free Will, do define it to some degree, then depart the conversation when disagreed with or questioned.
    • It seems absurd to posit that men do not make choices.
    • Does unregenerate man make the choice to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
      • Some say, Yes. Some say, No.
    • What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:
      • It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
      • It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
      • It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
      • It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
      • It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
      • With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
      • Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
        • Some will likely say, Yes.
        • Some will likely say, No.
        • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?
 
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studier said:
Discussing the Free Will of man

First mentioned - Greek Haireō: to choose

Haireō: Defining it

Haireō: NC Scriptures:

Search of the New Covenant Scriptures (only NC for now) for Greek haireō and some observations about man’s ability to choose:

NKJ Phil. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
  • A little context:
    • Phil. 1:21-25 NKJ 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
  • Some observations:
    • Paul is speaking of making a choice:
      • A choice between living here in flesh or dying and departing to be with Christ.
      • He says he is hard-pressed between the 2 choices
      • He says he has a desire to be with Christ and says it is far better than living here in flesh.
      • He then decides that remaining here in flesh is more needful for his audience than is his personal desire to die and depart.
      • He says he has been and is convinced and has known and knows that he will remain and continue with his audience for their progress and joy of the faith
  • A summary depiction:
    • Have information > have choices > struggle of desire vs. need > convinced & know > choice
  • Comments & Thoughts:
    • The concept of Free Will is mostly a philosophical discussion spanning millennia.
    • There's not much use discussing it if the ones having the discussion are not willing to define what they mean by Free Will
    • There are some who simply say there is no such thing as Free Will but who will not define what they mean by it and depart the conversation.
    • There are some who say there is no such thing as Free Will, do define it to some degree, then depart the conversation when disagreed with or questioned.
    • It seems absurd to posit that men do not make choices.
    • Does unregenerate man make the choice to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
      • Some say, Yes. Some say, No.
    • What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:
      • It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
      • It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
      • It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
      • It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
      • It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
      • With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
      • Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
        • Some will likely say, Yes.
        • Some will likely say, No.
        • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?
Click to expand...
I think people get things mixed up.

We can not change our hearts and are slaves to the flesh. We are not able to do right and free ourselves from this condition, we can't save ourselves.
BUT we do have choice. We can choose to go the power that can free us and save us.

Jesus can save us and is waiting for us to call. We are in jail and Jesus has the key.

Jer 13:23 KJV Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heb 12:2 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;....

We cannot change our heart,
But Jesus can if we will allow Him to.

If we will .... we choose... we give permission...

Don't get the two mixed up.
 
studier said:
Discussing the Free Will of man

First mentioned - Greek Haireō: to choose

Haireō: Defining it

Haireō: NC Scriptures:

Search of the New Covenant Scriptures (only NC for now) for Greek haireō and some observations about man’s ability to choose:

NKJ Phil. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
  • A little context:
    • Phil. 1:21-25 NKJ 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
  • Some observations:
    • Paul is speaking of making a choice:
      • A choice between living here in flesh or dying and departing to be with Christ.
      • He says he is hard-pressed between the 2 choices
      • He says he has a desire to be with Christ and says it is far better than living here in flesh.
      • He then decides that remaining here in flesh is more needful for his audience than is his personal desire to die and depart.
      • He says he has been and is convinced and has known and knows that he will remain and continue with his audience for their progress and joy of the faith
  • A summary depiction:
    • Have information > have choices > struggle of desire vs. need > convinced & know > choice
  • Comments & Thoughts:
    • The concept of Free Will is mostly a philosophical discussion spanning millennia.
    • There's not much use discussing it if the ones having the discussion are not willing to define what they mean by Free Will
    • There are some who simply say there is no such thing as Free Will but who will not define what they mean by it and depart the conversation.
    • There are some who say there is no such thing as Free Will, do define it to some degree, then depart the conversation when disagreed with or questioned.
    • It seems absurd to posit that men do not make choices.
    • Does unregenerate man make the choice to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
      • Some say, Yes. Some say, No.
    • What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:
      • It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
      • It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
      • It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
      • It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
      • It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
      • With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
      • Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
        • Some will likely say, Yes.
        • Some will likely say, No.
        • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?
Click to expand...
Are you saying Paul thought he could choose when he would die?
 
Cameron143 said:
Are you saying Paul thought he could choose when he would die?
Click to expand...

I pointed out what Paul said.

I questioned the same thing when thinking through the passage. I have an interesting article on this issue of suicide looking back through history in the Greek and Hebrew cultures. I'm happy to try to find the link if you'd like to read it.
 
studier said:
I pointed out what Paul said.

I questioned the same thing when thinking through the passage. I have an interesting article on this issue of suicide looking back through history in the Greek and Hebrew cultures. I'm happy to try to find the link if you'd like to read it.
Click to expand...
No need, but thanks. You don't believe what was stated contradicts Psalm 139:16?
 
studier said:
Discussing the Free Will of man

First mentioned - Greek Haireō: to choose

Haireō: Defining it

Haireō: NC Scriptures:

Search of the New Covenant Scriptures (only NC for now) for Greek haireō and some observations about man’s ability to choose:

NKJ Phil. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
  • A little context:
    • Phil. 1:21-25 NKJ 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
  • Some observations:
    • Paul is speaking of making a choice:
      • A choice between living here in flesh or dying and departing to be with Christ.
      • He says he is hard-pressed between the 2 choices
      • He says he has a desire to be with Christ and says it is far better than living here in flesh.
      • He then decides that remaining here in flesh is more needful for his audience than is his personal desire to die and depart.
      • He says he has been and is convinced and has known and knows that he will remain and continue with his audience for their progress and joy of the faith
  • A summary depiction:
    • Have information > have choices > struggle of desire vs. need > convinced & know > choice
  • Comments & Thoughts:
    • The concept of Free Will is mostly a philosophical discussion spanning millennia.
    • There's not much use discussing it if the ones having the discussion are not willing to define what they mean by Free Will
    • There are some who simply say there is no such thing as Free Will but who will not define what they mean by it and depart the conversation.
    • There are some who say there is no such thing as Free Will, do define it to some degree, then depart the conversation when disagreed with or questioned.
    • It seems absurd to posit that men do not make choices.
    • Does unregenerate man make the choice to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
      • Some say, Yes. Some say, No.
    • What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:
      • It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
      • It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
      • It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
      • It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
      • It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
      • With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
      • Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
        • Some will likely say, Yes.
        • Some will likely say, No.
        • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?
Click to expand...
Related words are hairesis; choice (maybe an intellectual choice?); thelEma: will/desire; (maybe one's top priority desire at any moment?); epithumia: passion, lust, desire set upon something, (fixation? obsession; maybe the kind of desire one fixates upon without acting to satisfy it?); prothumia: prior passion, lust, (maybe a desire that precedes an action? a predilection? a drive?)

Maybe the mind (i.e. nous/dianoia) prioritises influences (i.e. prothumia and epithumia) and chooses (i.e. haireo) what will be the most desirable desire (i.e. thelEma) to attempt to fulfil (i.e. teleO). If God leaves one free to follow this process without imposing a most desirable desire on the person, then they have a free will. This means that to be forced to fulfil some other person's desire, is to do the deed against one's own will. But to have one's desires themselves prioritised and a primary one imposed upon one by an outside agency would be to lack a free will, since the will itself (the primary desire, what one most wants to do) is imposed upon one by some other agency.
 
studier said:
I pointed out what Paul said.

I questioned the same thing when thinking through the passage. I have an interesting article on this issue of suicide looking back through history in the Greek and Hebrew cultures. I'm happy to try to find the link if you'd like to read it.
Click to expand...


You think Paul was contemplating suicide?
 
Cameron143 said:
No need, but thanks. You don't believe what was stated contradicts Psalm 139:16?
Click to expand...

First, there are several differences in translation of Ps139:16, so apart from doing some work, I couldn't answer you.

Assuming the translation I'm fairly certain is considered in your question, I could see it going a few different ways. If taking one's own life is not viewed in the Hebrew Text as we think it may be, and if the culture Paul grew up in - both Hebrew and Greek - did not view it as we do, then it could be viewed that God would know and have ordered his days to include his self-departure.

There's also the point of view of Paul using an example of taking his own life in speaking to a culture that viewed such a thing as a noble act.

The article I mentioned goes through this.

My answer to you at this time is, No, for at minimum the above reasons.
 
studier said:
First, there are several differences in translation of Ps139:16, so apart from doing some work, I couldn't answer you.

Assuming the translation I'm fairly certain is considered in your question, I could see it going a few different ways. If taking one's own life is not viewed in the Hebrew Text as we think it may be, and if the culture Paul grew up in - both Hebrew and Greek - did not view it as we do, then it could be viewed that God would know and have ordered his days to include his self-departure.

There's also the point of view of Paul using an example of taking his own life in speaking to a culture that viewed such a thing as a noble act.

The article I mentioned goes through this.

My answer to you at this time is, No, for at minimum the above reasons.
Click to expand...
How about in light of the fact that Paul was content regardless of his circumstances?
 
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studier said:
Discussing the Free Will of man

First mentioned - Greek Haireō: to choose

Haireō: Defining it

Haireō: NC Scriptures:

Search of the New Covenant Scriptures (only NC for now) for Greek haireō and some observations about man’s ability to choose:

NKJ Phil. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
  • A little context:
    • Phil. 1:21-25 NKJ 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
  • Some observations:
    • Paul is speaking of making a choice:
      • A choice between living here in flesh or dying and departing to be with Christ.
      • He says he is hard-pressed between the 2 choices
      • He says he has a desire to be with Christ and says it is far better than living here in flesh.
      • He then decides that remaining here in flesh is more needful for his audience than is his personal desire to die and depart.
      • He says he has been and is convinced and has known and knows that he will remain and continue with his audience for their progress and joy of the faith
  • A summary depiction:
    • Have information > have choices > struggle of desire vs. need > convinced & know > choice
  • Comments & Thoughts:
    • The concept of Free Will is mostly a philosophical discussion spanning millennia.
    • There's not much use discussing it if the ones having the discussion are not willing to define what they mean by Free Will
    • There are some who simply say there is no such thing as Free Will but who will not define what they mean by it and depart the conversation.
    • There are some who say there is no such thing as Free Will, do define it to some degree, then depart the conversation when disagreed with or questioned.
    • It seems absurd to posit that men do not make choices.
    • Does unregenerate man make the choice to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
      • Some say, Yes. Some say, No.
    • What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:
      • It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
      • It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
      • It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
      • It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
      • It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
      • With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
      • Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
        • Some will likely say, Yes.
        • Some will likely say, No.
        • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?
Click to expand...

Great study here. I can't help but remember that Paul is described as a chosen vessel in the Bible; yet, it is obvious that Paul is trying to make a choice in this particular passage of scripture. Whether or not Paul realizes it, he is receiving help from the Helper, the Holy Spirit, according to Romans 8:26-28—a lovely comforting promise.

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

It’s a choice, right? Does free will incorporate any choice? …or maybe just spiritual choices? I don’t know.

—selah
 
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