Great OT passage! One of my favorites. I think, generally, there is a big assumption in the Church today that God didn't work effectually with his OT saints to bring them to faith and repentance. But that isn't the sense I get from the OT scriptures, generally, and certainly not from the passage you quoted. And there is a very intriguing and interesting passage in the Gospel of John that adds weight to and justifies my beliefs in this area.
John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
NIV
I think many of us gloss over this kind of passage, forgetting that Christ and his disciples up until the Cross were under the Old Covenant. Jesus very plainly told his Old Covenant disciples that they KNEW the Holy Spirit because He lives WITH you -- which in some sense (that I admittedly don't understand) must differ from the Holy Spirit actually indwelling them. But the point remains: His Old Covenant disciples were still under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God was actively working among Christ's disciples and very likely all God-fearing Jews.
Whaddya think <g>?
Hello Rufus,
In my opinion, I believe that you understand things very well. I would offer you these questions that you may likely have already asked yourself:
How could Abel be the first true Prophet of God?
How could Job be considered Pure, Upright, and Blameless?
How could Abraham be our Father of Faith?
How could David repeatedly write and sing of his Righteousness and Purity? And more on David, why is Jesus said to be the Son of David, the Son of Abraham? What is the significance of this short genealogy of Christ? Is it relatively meaningless, or is Matt 1:1 incredibly significant in a deep and complicated Spiritual sense?
Of course, we could ask the same for all men and women considered to be examples of Faith. Hebrews 11 is the "Great Hall of Faith" chapter, all of whom are listed as genuine children of the Lord. How is this possible if Jesus had yet to live, die, and be raised from the dead?
Until about 7 years ago, I admittedly did not study the Old Testament, nor had I ever read it (completely), let alone read it in an timeline, chronological order, thus making it 100% impossible to know and understand the Story of God. But after finding myself in the restricted presence of the Lord (which nearly took my life - SO WONDERFUL!!), I realized that I needed to turn to our Bible so that I could know who this unbelievable God is that found and chose me. So, I began asking myself these questions and set out to discover the answers, and as I found over many thousands of hours of study, these questions, if answered, point us to the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ.
I believe that you are right, which is that God worked differently with people in the Old Testament, as He did in the New. But what about those in the New Testament who were clearly Indwelt by the Spirit before Jesus was born? For example, Zechariah and Elizabeth. In a sense, the NT stories before Christ should be viewed in the same circumstance as those of the Old Testament. But upon strong searching, there are plenty of Scriptures that state that humans were Indwelt by the Holy Spirit (in the OT). I would say that most people who do not study the OT, nor care to study it in a timeline, chronological order, will fight against the idea that the Saints were not Indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The evidence just doesn't allow for that belief.
One difference between the saints of the OT and the NT, is that after the Resurrection of Christ, we find that a Promise is made, which is that the Holy Spirit would [never] leave a person, which is a guarantee of what is to come. The significance of the guarantee is that the Holy Spirit, if a person has TRULY been given "Him," the Spirit will intercede, pray for, and even cause change within the Spiritually purchase believer that will cause them to never turn and fall away. There is no such guarantee in the Old Testament, and king Saul is the proof of this principle, for God takes responsibility for giving him this Spirit, but also takes responsibility for taking the Heavenly Spirit away and replacing it with an evil Spirit. As you suggested, people think that our God is different between the OT and NT, but I don't see any difference in His way at all, other than the OT does not have this Promise, while this Promise of the Spirit staying with the Elect does.
The Old Covenant has nothing to do with why Abraham is our Father of Faith. Absolutely nothing. The Law was given to those who had not received Abraham's Faith, thus the Law protected them until they could and would obtain this Faith. The Law was a worldly guardian that would protect them until Christ lived, died, and was Resurrected. The dead (their spirits) would be given a chance to put their Faith into Christ, which Scripture clarifies. But the Law of Moses has nothing to do with the Abrahamic Covenant. This Covenant is also called the Covenant of Circumcision, and it is the terms of this Covenant which the Lord had already been exercising in the Life of Abel, the first true Prophet of God. These terms were already being exercised in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Eldad and Medad, Caleb and Joshua, Samuel, David, Rahab the prostitute, and on and on. As Paul said in Ephesians Chapters 1 and 3, these details were kept hidden and remained "mysterious" until his day, when the Lord revealed these details to him so that he could unpack them. However, these things have been recorded by him, and other Holy men, in a way that they remain hidden today and only available to those who diligently ask, seek, and knock.
This Covenant of Circumcision points directly to Christ and the New Covenant. For, the terms of the Covenant of Circumcision are the EXACT same terms of the New Covenant, except for the fact that the Spirit will remain with the Elect and never depart. As far as I have been able to determine, this is the only difference between the Covenant of Circumcision established in Abraham in Genesis 17, and the New Covenant in Christ. Yes, it is the same Covenant! Again, the Old Covenant was a temporary Covenant that appeared in the middle of the Covenant of Circumcision, which never stopped . . . it has been in process from the very beginning, a beginning with Abel.
This explains why Abraham is our Father of Faith. This explains why all mentioned in Heb 11 are our examples of Faith. When these things make sense, all of a sudden, we realize that physical circumcision and water baptism are only symbols of something greater . . . and yes, that would be the symbol of a Circumcised heart. Circumcision is not only the fulcrum of our Faith, but it is also the fulcrum of the entire Bible. If we are Spiritually alive, it is because of the Circumcision of the Father, Son, and Spirit. If we are Spiritually dead, is because of the [lack] of this Spiritual Circumcision. This explains nearly all of Scripture. How can we Love according to 1 Cor Chapter 13, the Love Chapter, if our hearts have not been Circumcised of the Sinful Nature? How can we Love this way if we have not been released from the Curse, which is what it means to be released from Satan's captivity?
This is an EXTREMELY short summary of what the Bible says about what is required to be saved. So, have I offered anything that strikes a chord with you? Do these things resonate within your heart? My guess is that they do, otherwise I don't think that you would ask as you humbly have. But what about you? What do you think? Can you add anything to what I have offered? If so, I wouldn't be surprise, for as Jesus said, "The Scriptures point to me!"
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