I have many scriptures. I even went into some detail of how the the term "world" is used with all its spiritual-moral implications. And I also explained how the ancient Jews (and many even to this day) didn't believe that the chosen nation of Israel was part of the unclean, uncircumcised, profane world. You should do some of your own digging into the Word to learn for yourself. But I will suggest two passages for you to start your own investigation: Jn 17:9, 20 and 1Jn 2:2. After you do your homework, please get back and share your findings.
Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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It could have been avoided simply by God sending someone. He didn't. God isn't working in all places at all times. Where He is working, it isn't hard to discern. When God is doing what only God can do, it must be God.
In Revelation it is says that heaven is populated by a number that no man can number from every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue. Every people group is represented in eternity. That doesn't mean that every generation of that people group is included. And history bears this out.
The story of Jonah teaches far more about salvation than simply going to a people group to provide salvation, but it certainly was to save some of that particular people group.
In Revelation it is says that heaven is populated by a number that no man can number from every nation, kindred, tribe, and tongue. Every people group is represented in eternity. That doesn't mean that every generation of that people group is included. And history bears this out.
The story of Jonah teaches far more about salvation than simply going to a people group to provide salvation, but it certainly was to save some of that particular people group.
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SURE. … but let’s take, for example, Ephesians 1:4-5 where it is written:
… just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, …
Well what an awesome teaching this is, right? But then, ‘lo and behold, we find the same teaching in Romans 8, all about God’s elect (called saints). It’s interesting too that in verse 26, God tells us that His children don’t always know what to pray for and that the Holy Spirit will intercede for us. …and then it says that all things work together for good to those that love Him. Now see how God’s Word just flows so nicely?
It may take us a while, but hopefully we begin to understand the things He wants us to know.
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
- Romans 8:26-30
—Selah
SURE. … but let’s take, for example, Ephesians 1:4-5 where it is written:
… just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, …
Well what an awesome teaching this is, right? But then, ‘lo and behold, we find the same teaching in Romans 8, all about God’s elect (called saints). It’s interesting too that in verse 26, God tells us that His children don’t always know what to pray for and that the Holy Spirit will intercede for us. …and then it says that all things work together for good to those that love Him. Now see how God’s Word just flows so nicely?
It may take us a while, but hopefully we begin to understand the things He wants us to know.Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
- Romans 8:26-30
—Selah
On the other hand, there is a concept in scripture called common grace (or "universal") if you prefer (Mat 5:43-45), which should not be confused with saving/effectual grace (Phil 2:13: Jn 6:44). The general benevolence of God also should not be confused with his specific, familial love for his elect (Jn 14:21-23).
I didn't say Romans 1 doesn't apply to everyone. I said that there is a difference between knowing of the existence of God and knowing God.
Knowing that God exists is sufficient to make an individual guilty before God, but it is insufficient for eternal life, ie. knowing God. And to suggest that the ability to know that God exists is what is entailed in the love of God shed abroad in believer's hearts is far from understanding the love of God in Christ Jesus.
Knowing that God exists is sufficient to make an individual guilty before God, but it is insufficient for eternal life, ie. knowing God. And to suggest that the ability to know that God exists is what is entailed in the love of God shed abroad in believer's hearts is far from understanding the love of God in Christ Jesus.
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You do not know that God did not send someone at all.
I read in Matthew 28 where God said go to the ends of the earth and make Disciples. What you say is complete opposite of what God said.
I already showed we have statistics where 3.5 Billion people heard and rejected. Of course Heaven is not full because Jesus said more will choose the wide path.
I read in Matthew 28 where God said go to the ends of the earth and make Disciples. What you say is complete opposite of what God said.
I already showed we have statistics where 3.5 Billion people heard and rejected. Of course Heaven is not full because Jesus said more will choose the wide path.
Great OT passage! One of my favorites. I think, generally, there is a big assumption in the Church today that God didn't work effectually with his OT saints to bring them to faith and repentance. But that isn't the sense I get from the OT scriptures, generally, and certainly not from the passage you quoted. And there is a very intriguing and interesting passage in the Gospel of John that adds weight to and justifies my beliefs in this area.
John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
NIV
I think many of us gloss over this kind of passage, forgetting that Christ and his disciples up until the Cross were under the Old Covenant. Jesus very plainly told his Old Covenant disciples that they KNEW the Holy Spirit because He lives WITH you -- which in some sense (that I admittedly don't understand) must differ from the Holy Spirit actually indwelling them. But the point remains: His Old Covenant disciples were still under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God was actively working among Christ's disciples and very likely all God-fearing Jews.
Whaddya think <g>?
John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
NIV
I think many of us gloss over this kind of passage, forgetting that Christ and his disciples up until the Cross were under the Old Covenant. Jesus very plainly told his Old Covenant disciples that they KNEW the Holy Spirit because He lives WITH you -- which in some sense (that I admittedly don't understand) must differ from the Holy Spirit actually indwelling them. But the point remains: His Old Covenant disciples were still under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God was actively working among Christ's disciples and very likely all God-fearing Jews.
Whaddya think <g>?
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OK. Let me start with John 17:9.
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
I’ll go ahead and quote BibleRef.com because I agree with this statement: “In this context, the term "world" is a reference to the fallen, man-centered system, or way of life. John gives a specific definition of this term in verse 16. Someone who loves the way this world operates, including its control by sin, is a person who cannot also focus on the Father's will.” Dig it, Rufus?
In 1st John 2:2, “world” refers to everyone. Christ’s sacrifice was for all mankind:
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Rufus, perhaps it’s you who needs to do some digging in the Word; perhaps you need to also familiarize yourself with the context of certain words.
—Selah
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
I’ll go ahead and quote BibleRef.com because I agree with this statement: “In this context, the term "world" is a reference to the fallen, man-centered system, or way of life. John gives a specific definition of this term in verse 16. Someone who loves the way this world operates, including its control by sin, is a person who cannot also focus on the Father's will.” Dig it, Rufus?
In 1st John 2:2, “world” refers to everyone. Christ’s sacrifice was for all mankind:
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Rufus, perhaps it’s you who needs to do some digging in the Word; perhaps you need to also familiarize yourself with the context of certain words.
—Selah
I do know He didn't. When missionaries went throughout North America, Central America, and South America no one had heard of Christ or the gospel. Inland China wasn't breached until the 1850's. Again, no knowledge of Christ or the gospel. The Bible itself wasn't even widely available until the 1400's with the introduction of the printing press. So yes, I do know that there were large numbers of people over large portions of time that never heard the gospel or heard about Christ. Since the gospel is necessary to salvation and Christ is necessary as the object of faith, those generations that lived and died without ever hearing the gospel or hearing of Christ died in their sins. If someone wants to believe that this is the manifestation of God's love to all those people they are welcome to believe that. But I have and continue to know the love of God in Christ Jesus, and what I have experienced is nothing like what those individuals who never heard the gospel or the name of Jesus could experience according to the Bible. So I'm not buying it.
OK. Let me start with John 17:9.
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
I’ll go ahead and quote BibleRef.com because I agree with this statement: “In this context, the term "world" is a reference to the fallen, man-centered system, or way of life. John gives a specific definition of this term in verse 16. Someone who loves the way this world operates, including its control by sin, is a person who cannot also focus on the Father's will.” Dig it, Rufus?
In 1st John 2:2, “world” refers to everyone. Christ’s sacrifice was for all mankind:
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Rufus, perhaps it’s you who needs to do some digging in the Word; perhaps you need to also familiarize yourself with the context of certain words.
—Selah
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
I’ll go ahead and quote BibleRef.com because I agree with this statement: “In this context, the term "world" is a reference to the fallen, man-centered system, or way of life. John gives a specific definition of this term in verse 16. Someone who loves the way this world operates, including its control by sin, is a person who cannot also focus on the Father's will.” Dig it, Rufus?
In 1st John 2:2, “world” refers to everyone. Christ’s sacrifice was for all mankind:
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Rufus, perhaps it’s you who needs to do some digging in the Word; perhaps you need to also familiarize yourself with the context of certain words.
—Selah
Re 1Jn 2:2, John segregates his messianic Jewish audience FROM the world of Gentile believers. Jesus not only died for OUR sins (sins of Jewish believes) BUT also for the sins of the whole world. John is clearly making a distinction between himself and his audience and the Gentile world. Therefore, since he made this distinction between Jewish and Gentile believers, the term world (since it excludes the former type) can only be understood in the limited sense also. The "but" denotes a contrast or distinction.
And this interpretation is consistent with how the ancient Jews believed what their relationship was to the Gentile Nations, i.e. the world. They did not consider themselves as being part of the unclean, uncircumcised, profane, pagan Gentile world. They considered themselves separate from the world -- as God's special, peculiar, called, chosen people. And this is exactly what is going on in both the above passages.
I want to offer up something I read awhile back that I am still making sense of it myself to this very day.
As you have read I go to many Reformed sites to see their answers and many times I give their answers here especially in this Thread or like Threads.
But this is a coalition of Reformed Pastors, Theologians, Scholars. I am just copying/pasting the question and [bottom line specific answer] they offer for this question you have asked.
What Happens to Those Who Never Hear the Gospel?
Sep 7, 2016 — They are redeemed by the person and work of a Christ they don't consciously embrace. Simply put, Jesus may save some who never hear of him.
I find this fascinating and to be honest, I HOPE this TRUE!
As you have read I go to many Reformed sites to see their answers and many times I give their answers here especially in this Thread or like Threads.
But this is a coalition of Reformed Pastors, Theologians, Scholars. I am just copying/pasting the question and [bottom line specific answer] they offer for this question you have asked.
What Happens to Those Who Never Hear the Gospel?
Sep 7, 2016 — They are redeemed by the person and work of a Christ they don't consciously embrace. Simply put, Jesus may save some who never hear of him.
I find this fascinating and to be honest, I HOPE this TRUE!
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That is function and the reason for God giving grace!!!
To transform us into what does merit His favor!
To say we continue to not merit His favor?
Is to say someone is continually refusing His grace!
Grace is God giving us power to be what He desires us to be!
That is why we are told to 'please' God with our lives!
God can be pleased by us if His grace does what its out to accomplish in our lives!
When we mature to please God?
Then the righteousness we will manifest will demand God's blessing!
Colossians 1:10:
Bearing fruit in good works and increasing in your knowledge of God are pleasing to God.
Romans 12:1:
Presenting your body as a living sacrifice pleases God.
Romans 14:18:
Looking out for your weaker brother pleases God.
1 Thessalonians 2:4:
Truthfully teaching the word pleases God.
We will become someone who merits favor from God if we continue to walk in the Spirit,
and continue growing by grace in the knowledge of sound doctrine.
That does not include simple Bible memorization.
Only sound doctrine, being understood and BELIEVED, pleased God.
James 2:21
Well, our ancestor Abraham pleased God by putting his son Isaac on the altar to sacrifice him.
grace and peace ...........
To transform us into what does merit His favor!
To say we continue to not merit His favor?
Is to say someone is continually refusing His grace!
Grace is God giving us power to be what He desires us to be!
That is why we are told to 'please' God with our lives!
God can be pleased by us if His grace does what its out to accomplish in our lives!
When we mature to please God?
Then the righteousness we will manifest will demand God's blessing!
Colossians 1:10:
Bearing fruit in good works and increasing in your knowledge of God are pleasing to God.
Romans 12:1:
Presenting your body as a living sacrifice pleases God.
Romans 14:18:
Looking out for your weaker brother pleases God.
1 Thessalonians 2:4:
Truthfully teaching the word pleases God.
We will become someone who merits favor from God if we continue to walk in the Spirit,
and continue growing by grace in the knowledge of sound doctrine.
That does not include simple Bible memorization.
Only sound doctrine, being understood and BELIEVED, pleased God.
James 2:21
Well, our ancestor Abraham pleased God by putting his son Isaac on the altar to sacrifice him.
grace and peace ...........
But all that you have said doesn't change the fact that sinners do not deserve God's grace; they only deserve his Justice. Therefore, e wicked, vile sinners never merit his grace. And even when a sinner converts, he still doesn't merit God's grace because God could have justly left him in his original condition of spiritual death. God is not obligated to save anyone...ever!
More thoughts on how to understand the term "world" in scripture. Since there is a very large spiritual component to the biblical definition of this term, I thought I would "mathematically" express how this term very often talks of one of two very distinct spiritual groups. (Ms. Selahsays, maybe this will make it easier for you to understand.)
Group 1 = Non-Elect in Adam
This group is physically IN AND spiritually OF this world.
Group 2 = Elect in Last Adam
This group is physically IN this world but NOT spiritually OF it.
Therefore, in order to understand the term "world" in the distributive sense to mean each and every person, the context of the passage must make it crystal clear that it's talking about both groups simultaneously. The passage must be talking about the Elect and Non-Elect. So, with this understanding let's apply the "math" to Jn 17:9.
Jesus clearly prayed for two groups of elect: His Jewish disciples in his presence and, therefore, by extension all believing Jews. This group consist of his Jewish sheep. Likewise, the 2nd group he prayed for are his sheep from a different flock (Jn 10:16) -- the Gentile elect who would come to believe on him through the evangelizing of his Jewish flock, with the divine purpose being that both flocks would become one in the Body of Christ.
By Jesus explicitly not praying for the world, we can only understand this exclusion as referencing only Group 1. And since he did in fact pray for Group 2 who are also IN the world (along with Group 2), then their exclusion from the world means this term must be understood in the limited sense since both groups are most definitely not included in the term "world".
1Jn 2:2 has a little different twist to it since John is referencing both kinds of people in Group 2. He excluded the Jewish flock (to whom he was primarily writing) by clearly making a distinction between them and the Gentile flock also IN the "world" with "but". And it's not surprising that John did this because the ancient Jewish mindset was that the chosen covenant people of God were never a part of the pagan Gentile nations that comprise the rest of the world. Most ancient Jews were loathe to even enter the homes of Gentiles.
Someone might object and say it's arbitrary and convenient for me to assume that the Gentiles included in the term "world" don't include the non-elect Gentiles as well. My retort would be if this were the case, this would present more than few a theological problems. For example, why didn't Christ pray for the non-elect Gentiles of the world for whom he his is the "atoning sacrifice", according to John? Another problem are the many verses that limit the atonement to "many" versus all in the distributive sense. These would present many contradictions, etc.
Also, way back in my 2117, I exegeted 1Jn 5:19 which teaches that the "whole world is under the power of the evil one". I showed in that post how understanding the term world in that passage as consisting of both the aforementioned groups would present some serious contradictions, also. One of the major ones is that that kind of interpretation would immediately contradict v. 18 And also, it would imply that Jesus epically failed in one aspect of his earthly mission which was to destroy the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8). Therefore, the only logical and biblical way to understand the term "world" in 1Jn 5:19 in the limited sense in that John is referring only to Group 1. After all, it is the spiritually dead in Adam who love the things of this world.
Group 1 = Non-Elect in Adam
This group is physically IN AND spiritually OF this world.
Group 2 = Elect in Last Adam
This group is physically IN this world but NOT spiritually OF it.
Therefore, in order to understand the term "world" in the distributive sense to mean each and every person, the context of the passage must make it crystal clear that it's talking about both groups simultaneously. The passage must be talking about the Elect and Non-Elect. So, with this understanding let's apply the "math" to Jn 17:9.
Jesus clearly prayed for two groups of elect: His Jewish disciples in his presence and, therefore, by extension all believing Jews. This group consist of his Jewish sheep. Likewise, the 2nd group he prayed for are his sheep from a different flock (Jn 10:16) -- the Gentile elect who would come to believe on him through the evangelizing of his Jewish flock, with the divine purpose being that both flocks would become one in the Body of Christ.
By Jesus explicitly not praying for the world, we can only understand this exclusion as referencing only Group 1. And since he did in fact pray for Group 2 who are also IN the world (along with Group 2), then their exclusion from the world means this term must be understood in the limited sense since both groups are most definitely not included in the term "world".
1Jn 2:2 has a little different twist to it since John is referencing both kinds of people in Group 2. He excluded the Jewish flock (to whom he was primarily writing) by clearly making a distinction between them and the Gentile flock also IN the "world" with "but". And it's not surprising that John did this because the ancient Jewish mindset was that the chosen covenant people of God were never a part of the pagan Gentile nations that comprise the rest of the world. Most ancient Jews were loathe to even enter the homes of Gentiles.
Someone might object and say it's arbitrary and convenient for me to assume that the Gentiles included in the term "world" don't include the non-elect Gentiles as well. My retort would be if this were the case, this would present more than few a theological problems. For example, why didn't Christ pray for the non-elect Gentiles of the world for whom he his is the "atoning sacrifice", according to John? Another problem are the many verses that limit the atonement to "many" versus all in the distributive sense. These would present many contradictions, etc.
Also, way back in my 2117, I exegeted 1Jn 5:19 which teaches that the "whole world is under the power of the evil one". I showed in that post how understanding the term world in that passage as consisting of both the aforementioned groups would present some serious contradictions, also. One of the major ones is that that kind of interpretation would immediately contradict v. 18 And also, it would imply that Jesus epically failed in one aspect of his earthly mission which was to destroy the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8). Therefore, the only logical and biblical way to understand the term "world" in 1Jn 5:19 in the limited sense in that John is referring only to Group 1. After all, it is the spiritually dead in Adam who love the things of this world.