Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[cv5]

Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Let me ask the experts on this thread including @Magenta @rogerg @Cameron143 ......:

Am I correct in assuming that this is your go-to text used to support what is commonly known as "total depravity" or "total inability"?

 

[cv5]

Well Rufus, the JW's think they are saved.

Debatable. I think that many know that they are spinning their wheels in vain.
As do many in the other cults.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It seems that our sense of free will is simply not enough to grant us the ability to choose to be kind to one another.

Romans 14:19 CSB - "So then, let us pursue what promotes peace and what builds up one another."

This self-ability to be kind and gentle with one another alludes the vast majority.

 

[Cameron143]

It seems that our sense of free will is simply not enough to grant us the ability to choose to be kind to one another.

Romans 14:19 CSB - "So then, let us pursue what promotes peace and what builds up one another."

This self-ability to be kind and gentle with one another alludes the vast majority.

Kindness or love and gentleness are fruit of the Spirit. This might be more telling than you realize.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Kindness or love and gentleness are fruit of the Spirit. This might be more telling than you realize.

The fact that we cannot speak to each other with kindness and gentleness, the way we would like to be addressed ourselves, should cause us to question why we are deadfully failing according to the written explanation of the Fruits of the Spirit. We all know what the Fruits of the Spirit are, so why are "people" not afraid for their souls fully knowing that they are not producing the Fruit that proves we possess the Spirit?

Understanding, Knowledge, and Wisdom are useless if we do not possess the Spirit.

 

[cv5]

The fact that we cannot speak to each other with kindness and gentleness, the way we would like to be addressed ourselves, should cause us to question why we are deadfully failing according to the written explanation of the Fruits of the Spirit. We all know what the Fruits of the Spirit are, so why are "people" not afraid for their souls fully knowing that they are not producing the Fruit that proves we possess the Spirit?

Understanding, Knowledge, and Wisdom are useless if we do not possess the Spirit.

Truth comes first buddy. Always. This is not a popularity contest.

Luk 6:22
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Luk 6:26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It seems that our sense of free will is simply not enough to grant us the ability to choose to be kind to one another.

Romans 14:19 CSB - "So then, let us pursue what promotes peace and what builds up one another."

This self-ability to be kind and gentle with one another alludes the vast majority.

And it goes back to how did Jesus approach False Teachers using words that God Himself never used or idealism He never promoted?

In other words, how do you talk to Satan?

Like a friend or enemy of God?

 

[Rufus]

Says the same thing.
WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO IT!!

Only in your pipe dreams. And what part of "perhaps" don't you understand? "Would" expresses desire, choice and willingness. But how can desperately wicked hearts desire God? How can they willingly seek him? How can they make good choices? Have you never read:

Matt 12:34
34 You brood of vipers, how CAN you who ARE EVIL say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
NIV

The above question is a rhetorical one, by the way. But I'm sure you'll find a way around that.

Time and time and time again, I have asked you NR folks the same basic question just slightly differently. I have asked: How can anyone with an evil nature or evil heart make good choices? Since we're bad trees with roots deep in the soil of sinfulness since birth, how can we bear good fruit? How can we choose to become something entirely different from what we are? And the passage above is my justification for asking such things!

What Jesus is saying in the above is this: "How can you who are evil choose to say anything good!?

So, now...let's apply the moral/spiritual principle that Jesus taught -- and also taught in other places in scripture -- to Acts 17:27.

Again, the text reads in the NIV:

Acts 17:27
27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
NIV

But this is a poor rendering. Other translations such as the ASV, KJV, ESV, YLT, NASB, etc. -- all very literal translations read: "that they SHOULD seek God..."

And this rendering harmonizes quite nicely with the above passage in Matthew and a host of others that teach the total depravity of man. The term "should" fits so well because it speaks to man's moral/spiritual responsibility. All men SHOULD do many things when it comes to God: They SHOULD love him, trust him, obey him, worship him, fear him, glorify him, etc, etc. And men should also seek after him!

This translation is consistent with Jesus' teaching because even though all men should seek after God, we know they don't because of the overflow of evil in their hearts! Evil hearts cannot choose to do anything good towards God because men have no desire within such corrupt hearts to do good. The hearts of men are not partly good and partly evil. They are only evil! Period!

Also this rendering is consistent with what Paul taught elsewhere -- such as in Rom 3:11 -- "no one who seeks God". Therefore, Paul hasn't contradicted himself either.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Only in your pipe dreams. And what part of "perhaps" don't you understand? "Would" expresses desire, choice and willingness. But how can desperately wicked hearts desire God? How can they willingly seek him? How can they make good choices? Have you never read:

Matt 12:34
34 You brood of vipers, how CAN you who ARE EVIL say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
NIV

The above question is a rhetorical one, by the way. But I'm sure you'll find a way around that.

Time and time and time again, I have asked you NR folks the same basic question just slightly differently. I have asked: How can anyone with an evil nature or evil heart make good choices? Since we're bad trees with roots deep in the soil of sinfulness since birth, how can we bear good fruit? How can we choose to become something entirely different from what we are? And the passage above is my justification for asking such things!

What Jesus is saying in the above is this: "How can you who are evil choose to say anything good!?

So, now...let's apply the moral/spiritual principle that Jesus taught -- and also taught in other places in scripture -- to Acts 17:27.

Again, the text reads in the NIV:

Acts 17:27
27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
NIV

But this is a poor rendering. Other translations such as the ASV, KJV, ESV, YLT, NASB, etc. -- all very literal translations read: "that they SHOULD seek God..."

And this rendering harmonizes quite nicely with the above passage in Matthew and a host of others that teach the total depravity of man. The term "should" fits so well because it speaks to man's moral/spiritual responsibility. All men SHOULD do many things when it comes to God: They SHOULD love him, trust him, obey him, worship him, fear him, glorify him, etc, etc. And men should also seek after him!

This translation is consistent with Jesus' teaching because even though all men should seek after God, we know they don't because of the overflow of evil in their hearts! Evil hearts cannot choose to do anything good towards God because men have no desire within such corrupt hearts to do good. The hearts of men are not partly good and partly evil. They are only evil! Period!

Also this rendering is consistent with what Paul taught elsewhere -- such as in Rom 3:11 -- "no one who seeks God". Therefore, Paul hasn't contradicted himself either.

Religious people have a seared consciousness.
Ever seen one Repent in these days?
Truly Repent?

But a regular ole joe sinner just being his natural self has the ability to repent whenever he hears the Gospel.
He even is sorrowful when the civil law corrects him.

You continue to be legalistic.
Your entire platform is like a court case.
Good luck in front of the Judge on Judgement Day.

 

[BillyBob]

Brother, they were Southern Baptist, Reformed.

Believe me, this is the 1st time that I have ever heard Southern Baptist referred to as reformed. Not saying that is is not possible, but highly unusual! Not that I am a member of a SBC but I have known a few.
One thing I must applaud them for is the Baptist Men's ministry.

• No matter where a disaster happens, they are among the 1st to arrive and to help in the cleanup effort.
• Many of them will pitch in with the construction of a new church. All they ask for is a chicken dinner.
• It does not even matter if it's a Baptist church or not!

I just hope that the jobs they perform come from the heart. That is the extent of what I have observed, and wish more churches would do the same!

 

[Rufus]

Truth comes first buddy. Always. This is not a popularity contest.

Luk 6:22
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Luk 6:26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Oh...so the passages above apply to the inner circle of the family of God and how brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to speak to each other, how we SHOULD address one another? No love required? No respect? And when we don't love each other in the Lord, we're still loving Christ, I suppose?

 

[Cameron143]

We are to speak the truth in love with the good of the other person in mind and always looking towards restoration.
People go to great lengths to defend their sin, and kick love your neighbor to the curb. If you aren't loving the people in front of you, you aren't loving God...1 John 4:20. Loving God always comes first.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Believe me, this is the 1st time that I have ever heard Southern Baptist referred to as reformed. Not saying that is is not possible, but highly unusual! Not that I am a member of a SBC but I have known a few.
One thing I must applaud them for is the Baptist Men's ministry.

• No matter where a disaster happens, they are among the 1st to arrive and to help in the cleanup effort.
• Many of them will pitch in with the construction of a new church. All they ask for is a chicken dinner.
• It does not even matter if it's a Baptist church or not!

I just hope that the jobs they perform come from the heart. That is the extent of what I have observed, and wish more churches would do the same!

That was back in the 1990s.
People just were what they are.
Like I said a couple of them are now good friends of mine and I am sure some of them had a heart change along the way.
I am just pointing out that some people get way too legalistic in their doctrines.
It goes beyond grandpa believed, daddy believed, so do I.
Some times it goes to whoever is not of your doctrine is like a commie red lol
Them good ole boys were serious.

And like I said, I was wrong to paint the whole group of people into one viewpoint.
I should have said [some].
But they definitely had me shaking in my boots for a minute and it did cross my mind if I was going to get out of that State alive.

 

[Rufus]

Religious people have a seared consciousness.
Ever seen one Repent in these days?
Truly Repent?

But a regular ole joe sinner just being his natural self has the ability to repent whenever he hears the Gospel.
He even is sorrowful when the civil law corrects him.

You continue to be legalistic.
Your entire platform is like a court case.
Good luck in front of the Judge on Judgement Day.

Legalistic?

Maybe Jesus was being legalistic when he asked that tough rhetorical question to religious folks. And must I remind you that the world is filled with far more religious folks than strictly secular ones? And this latter group ain't a bunch of sweethearts either. But "regular ole sinners" -- regular ole Natural Man -- well, these types are the real salt of the earth, the real deal GOOD ole boys. aren't they?

 

[selahsays]

Yes! promises! No one can be promised what they already have, and so promises, inherently, require believing in them. Faith that He Who promised is able to materialize them!

Amen!

 

[Rufus]

That was back in the 1990s.
People just were what they are.
Like I said a couple of them are now good friends of mine and I am sure some of them had a heart change along the way.
I am just pointing out that some people get way too legalistic in their doctrines.
It goes beyond grandpa believed, daddy believed, so do I.
Some times it goes to whoever is not of your doctrine is like a commie red lol
Them good ole boys were serious.

And like I said, I was wrong to paint the whole group of people into one viewpoint.
I should have said [some].
But they definitely had me shaking in my boots for a minute and it did cross my mind if I was going to get out of that State alive.

"Legalistic in their doctrines"? Explain, please.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

And it goes back to how did Jesus approach False Teachers using words that God Himself never used or idealism He never promoted?

In other words, how do you talk to Satan?

Like a friend or enemy of God?

The same way Michael, the Mightiest of Angels spoke to him/them.

Jude 1:8-11 NLT - "In the same way, these people--who claim authority from their dreams--live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings. But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.) But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion."

I give up on the hatred that thrives within this forum.

 

[selahsays]

We pray because it's commanded of us AND it's a means of Grace. You NR folks just don't get it: God ordains the ends and well as the means to those ends.

Maybe we pray because we love and believe and trust our heavenly Father?

 

[MerSee]

Maybe only the Prayers of the elect have an eternal efficacious effect.

 

[selahsays]

The same way Michael, the Mightiest of Angels spoke to him/them.

Jude 1:8-11 NLT - "In the same way, these people--who claim authority from their dreams--live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at supernatural beings. But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.) But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion."

I give up on the hatred that thrives within this forum.

When Satan appears soon, are you perhaps planning on exchanging pleasantries with him?