Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[FollowerofShiloh]

When I was 11, I was permitted to study some of the Talmud and have the Rabbi, working as the headmaster or teacher explain things for me I wanted clarified. Ultimately, the Talmud consists of 4 things.
1. Mikra (Old Testament)
2. Interpretations of High Priests from Aaron down to 70 A.D.
3. Synagogue Teachings [no different than a Preacher reading the Bible and explaining it]
4. Historical Events [Obviously Jesus or Yeshu were skewed in explanation]

But the "gist" of these writings come from the Groups within the Sanhedrin [Pharisees-Sadducees-Other sects of Groups including Scribes]

And basically it's a urinating contest amongst them.

Reformed based Threads remind me so much of Pharisees and Sadducees and other nut jobs theists led Sanhedrin.

Ultimately, they killed Jesus.

I some times wonder if this was 2,000 years ago. How many non Reformed members would have already been put to death by the Reformed? And no doubt it would be done as if God ordained it.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Amen!

What is on your heart, Brother?

What is weighing on you?

Let's see if I might have something to share that would both enlighten your burden and bring joy and peace to your reasoning.

Whew. You are opening Pandora's Box with these questions. My burdens are astonishing, beginning when just a little boy and they continue to this day. But this is not bad, though it hurts badly. God has Graciously allowed me to be sifted, and this is for my benefit . . . and the Lord's. This sifting has gone on for decades, but with Holy Purpose. I have been gifted the ability to honestly say that I have never cursed God, nor have I ever blamed him in an abusive way for my sufferings (which blows me away). It is evidence such as this that allows me to marvel not at myself, but over the Power of God in how He causes people to interface with me as they do. The details are what movies are made of. Therefore, it is by my not cursing the Lord that brings Him Glory, for this is the crushing defeat of my Accuror, Satan. He accuses me of sin just as the case with Job, but the Lord upholds me and does not allow me to fail in this way. Therefore, because of this crushing defeat of Satan, this is what brings the Lord Glory. It is all the Power of God, and certainly none from me.

Philippians 1:29 NKJV - 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake . . ."

I perfectly relate to the above Scripture . . . and it is all a Miracle!

What I am looking for, and not just for me, but for all who suffer, are friends that are [not] like Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz. They only consoled him for one week before they began saying the most incredible things to the one whom they referred to as "friend." No, their words were anything but friendly. In fact, the things they said to Job while covered in sickness and disease, were nothing less that sick.

"Christians" need to understand that they don't always understand to whom they are speaking. At an old "christian" forum, I was privileged to know that an elderly member (in her 90s) was preparing to die. She didn't have long, and it boggled my mind to read the horrific words that her "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ were saying to her. It was just unbelievable. Imagine that . . . you are preparing to die, yet your "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ are berating you with unnecessary words, phrases, and concepts . . . none of them Righteous, Holy, or good. As for me, I couldn't defend her as I would have liked, for to do so would have disclosed her approaching death. We don't know what each of us is going through. Therefore, we must speak to each other with kindness and gentleness; after all, these people might be coming to Christian forums looking for such treatment. Instead, they receive abuse. This is what burdens my heart! It is my Love for others that causes me so much pain. The Love that God has for His Son, when it is given to us, this Love becomes something like a Blessing but a curse. Of course, this Love is not a curse, but it is the point being made. Love causes us to hurt when it isn't reciprocated.

I could go on and on, but I would only be accused of egotistical humility or some nonsense as such.

I just want us to Love each other.

 

[BillyBob]

When I was 11, I was permitted to study some of the Talmud and have the Rabbi, working as the headmaster or teacher explain things for me I wanted clarified. Ultimately, the Talmud consists of 4 things.
1. Mikra (Old Testament)
2. Interpretations of High Priests from Aaron down to 70 A.D.
3. Synagogue Teachings [no different than a Preacher reading the Bible and explaining it]
4. Historical Events [Obviously Jesus or Yeshu were skewed in explanation]

But the "gist" of these writings come from the Groups within the Sanhedrin [Pharisees-Sadducees-Other sects of Groups including Scribes]

And basically it's a urinating contest amongst them.

Reformed based Threads remind me so much of Pharisees and Sadducees and other nut jobs theists led Sanhedrin.

Ultimately, they killed Jesus.

I some times wonder if this was 2,000 years ago. How many non Reformed members would have already been put to death by the Reformed? And no doubt it would be done as if God ordained it.

You and the N/R have regularly chided the reformed for not having a works based view of scripture.
Are you now saying these hateful things because you have reached a point where you can no longer defend your views?

 

[MerSee]

So now you're anti-doctrine? There are no doctrines in the bible? No dogma in the bible? No teaching? No instruction?

The Holy Bible is Doctrine. The commandments of God/Jesus Christ are instruction.

 

[MerSee]

Matthew 11:30
26 Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

 

[PaulThomson]

A lot of people have made that claim, sir! Many here have said that if WE don't decide to enter the kingdom of God by faith and repentance, and God gets to decide that, then he would be "forcing" us to enter his kingdom -- forcing us against our will. Of course, you are right. The examples of scripture of God "exerting" his sovereign Lordship over his moral creatures are numerous in scripture. But that doesn't stop the detractors of the Doctrines of Grace spouting their usual nonsense.

You haven't given an example. You have merely restated your claim that a lot of people has claimed that "God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency."

Who has even claimed that there is such a thing as "the sanctity and integrity of a persons free moral agency. Free will does not mean one's free moral agency. Free will means the freedom to keep or change one's own desires. One can keep one'sown desires against doing something while being forced to do it.

But God unilaterally changing our desires ,so that we cannot keep our own desires against doing something even though we want to keep them, is a violation of free will. Free will is not about moral agency, i.e. the ability freely to do moral or immoral acts.

Please try to challenge the definitions others use for free will, not straw man definitions.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Whew. You are opening Pandora's Box with these questions. My burdens are astonishing, beginning when just a little boy and they continue to this day. But this is not bad, though it hurts badly. God has Graciously allowed me to be sifted, and this is for my benefit . . . and the Lord's. This sifting has gone on for decades, but with Holy Purpose. I have been gifted the ability to honestly say that I have never cursed God, nor have I ever blamed him in an abusive way for my sufferings (which blows me away). It is evidence such as this that allows me to marvel not at myself, but over the Power of God in how He causes people to interface with me as they do. The details are what movies are made of. Therefore, it is by my not cursing the Lord that brings Him Glory, for this is the crushing defeat of my Accuror, Satan. He accuses me of sin just as the case with Job, but the Lord upholds me and does not allow me to fail in this way. Therefore, because of this crushing defeat of Satan, this is what brings the Lord Glory. It is all the Power of God, and certainly none from me.

Although you mention experiencing burdens from when you were a little boy, which in my mind could mean so many things that either you dealt with on a personal level or had witnessed. I do wonder about those who carry things and seem to never find relief. But to compare your experience with Job and the sifting that Peter endured and escaped paints a very deep intact understanding that you do feel empowered by these trials you have overcome. And the urgency to create an atmosphere of peace amongst us all is very telling. Very admirable considering you are looking beyond this moment but desire this moment right now to be united.

So many thoughts are flooding my mind here and now from reading your words. I believe I shall take this at a slow even pace to see if my thoughts connect here. I would almost wonder if you are a counselor because in the medical arena you seem qualified as a therapist/psychologist.

Philippians 1:29 NKJV - 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake . . ."

I perfectly relate to the above Scripture . . . and it is all a Miracle!

Amen!

What I am looking for, and not just for me, but for all who suffer, are friends that are [not] like Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz. They only consoled him for one week before they began saying the most incredible things to the one whom they referred to as "friend." No, their words were anything but friendly. In fact, the things they said to Job while covered in sickness and disease, were nothing less that sick.

I agree. For being friends they threw Job under the bus and suggested he do the unthinkable while all along trying to get him to confess to something Job knew he was innocent of.

With friends like that who needs enemies?

"Christians" need to understand that they don't always understand to whom they are speaking. At an old "christian" forum, I was privileged to know that an elderly member (in her 90s) was preparing to die. She didn't have long, and it boggled my mind to read the horrific words that her "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ were saying to her. It was just unbelievable. Imagine that . . . you are preparing to die, yet your "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ are berating you with unnecessary words, phrases, and concepts . . . none of them Righteous, Holy, or good. As for me, I couldn't defend her as I would have liked, for to do so would have disclosed her approaching death. We don't know what each of us is going through. Therefore, we must speak to each other with kindness and gentleness; after all, these people might be coming to Christian forums looking for such treatment. Instead, they receive abuse. This is what burdens my heart! It is my Love for others that causes me so much pain. The Love that God has for His Son, when it is given to us, this Love becomes something like a Blessing but a curse. Of course, this Love is not a curse, but it is the point being made. Love causes us to hurt when it isn't reciprocated.

This is heart breaking. In her 90s and preparing to die.

I have noticed that when people just talk to one another they feel for each other. They begin to harmonize. But when people come at you on the basis of doctrine, they preach at you but more so pass judgement and issue condemnation. We all have one Doctrine, Jesus Christ and His Life, His Death, His Burial, and His Resurrection. Everything else, nothing but Dogma with a dash of Hogwash.

I could go on and on, but I would only be accused of egotistical humility or some nonsense as such.

I am listening

I just want us to Love each other.

Sounds like a reasonable desire to me

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You and the N/R have regularly chided the reformed for not having a works based view of scripture.
Are you now saying these hateful things because you have reached a point where you can no longer defend your views?

I don't know if it is part that you read certain words and your mind goes directly to a specific assumption or that you just are missing the point. But I would like for you to show me the works based salvation I have ever presented?

What I can assure you about is when I talk about works it's typically about God's Works that He is doing through someone who has submitted to Him. Like going somewhere and seeing the needy. And you get this feeling to do something for those people. Ultimately, that is God doing His Works but you are the one doing them. But I understand why you would oppose that because you think the term [works] is always related to salvation. And I am talking about people who are already saved doing what God tells them to do.

The fact you do not understand the difference is why I oppose you. I would venture to guess that you do nothing for God or very little when God does His works through people. How many people have you led to Jesus...or do you think God will save them so you refuse to do His Works for Him?

The Great Commission is to be a Witness for Jesus and to make Disciples.

How many Disciples have you made?

 

[studier]

Titus 3:9-11 NLT - "Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. For people like that have turned away from the truth, and their own sins condemn them."

Odd translation. Once again context doesn't matter. Not much discussion taking place in this thread about Jewish laws.

The ones "causing divisions" here is the word from which we get "heretic" and it looks even in this translation to be paralleled with those who "have turned away from the truth" and are in sin

I wonder if this poster knows or cares that such posts are condemning others as heretics who have been perverted/turned aside from truth or what is morally proper and are sinning; they are self-condemned.

All this accusation because they disagree with him(?) as he cries out for Christian love and thinking as he thinks.

My goodness...

 

[studier]

Ha! Well, I am getting much better at this drinking problem. It seems like drinking anything but water or pure juice is probably not good for us. I am just so thankful that the Lord had turned my love for alcohol into a hatred for it. I loved it so much that I now hate it, as I had absolute no FREE WILL to refuse it. I was completely controlled by that stuff. So . . . to be drinking Maxwell House instant coffee, the kind that comes with its own creamers and sugars, I feed myself half of their serving size (of the powder) and fill the rest with chocolate milk. - This way, it stains my expensive porcelain "teeth" much less.

The alcohol, instant coffee, chemical creamers and processed or fake sugars, and likely sugar and or chemical loaded chocolate milk are likely part of what's feeding your cancer.

No comment about free will. Not worth it.

This poster has me on ignore. Someone ought to chime in and point him to some better health advisors.

 

[HeIsHere]

The alcohol, instant coffee, chemical creamers and processed or fake sugars, and likely sugar and or chemical loaded chocolate milk are likely part of what's feeding your cancer.

No comment about free will. Not worth it.

This poster has me on ignore. Someone ought to chime in and point him to some better health advisors.

I did read this morning that espresso coffee (no sugar/black) in the morning is good for the gut micro-biome.
I am keeping that one!!

 

[studier]

I did read this morning that espresso coffee (no sugar/black) in the morning is good for the gut micro-biome.
I am keeping that one!!

It may well be for some and not for others. If some would just drop the chemicals and processed sugars (using their free will of course), first they'd detox a bit and feel bad while doing so, then they'd drop some weight and at some point start feeling better than they did prior to the detox. It's amazing what willfully shedding a little sin - sorry, toxins - will do for a person and how it can turn them to seek the great solution.

Enjoy the espresso. Drink the good stuff. You're worth it. He sees us through His Son, our first-born brother and Lord.

 

[HeIsHere]

It may well be for some and not for others. If some would just drop the chemicals and processed sugars (using their free will of course), first they'd detox a bit and feel bad while doing so, then they'd drop some weight and at some point start feeling better than they did prior to the detox. It's amazing what willfully shedding a little sin - sorry, toxins - will do for a person and how it can turn them to seek the great solution.

Enjoy the espresso. Drink the good stuff. You're worth it. He sees us through His Son, our first-born brother and Lord.

Good advice,
Detoxing, intermittent fasting, Keto/Paleo diet all good!

The good stuff (espresso) can only be found in Italy, but I am biased.

 

[BillyBob]

I don't know if it is part that you read certain words and your mind goes directly to a specific assumption or that you just are missing the point. But I would like for you to show me the works based salvation I have ever presented?

I could be wrong and have you confused with another poster. If so I am sorry. I will have to go back and look.

What I can assure you about is when I talk about works it's typically about God's Works that He is doing through someone who has submitted to Him. Like going somewhere and seeing the needy. And you get this feeling to do something for those people. Ultimately, that is God doing His Works but you are the one doing them. But I understand why you would oppose that because you think the term [works] is always related to salvation. And I am talking about people who are already saved doing what God tells them to do.

This I agree with! Works which are pleasing to God are a result of our salvation not the cause. It is only when people speak of works needed to obtain salvation that I oppose their statements.
However, the following statement is not warranted!
I some times wonder if this was 2,000 years ago. How many non Reformed members would have already been put to death by the Reformed? And no doubt it would be done as if God ordained it. post 7921

 

[Rufus]

No, you brought Moses into it, here's your post :
Two questions: First, what was the Promise to Abraham re the Land? And secondly, what did God tell Moses about the Land when He called his servant to confront Pharaoh?

Yeah...so...What did my question to you have to do with Moses leading the people into land? My question was crystal clear: What did God tell Moses about the Land!? Answer: That the Lord himself would lead the people in!

 

[Rufus]

14 I thank God that I immersed none of you, except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one should say that I had immersed you into my own name.

He's talking about people always making things into a Doctrine like YOU!

Methinks God invented doctrines. But since doctrines are not so important to you, then I suppose you must think that cults like the JWs that don't hold to the divinity of Christ are okay? All their members are saved, right?

 

[Rufus]

So, you believe Water Baptism a symbolic representation of what already occurred spiritually to those saved, or did I misunderstand?

Absolutely. And Baptism is the way for believers to make a public confession of faith by publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Inquisitor]

Ha! Well, I am getting much better at this drinking problem. It seems like drinking anything but water or pure juice is probably not good for us. I am just so thankful that the Lord had turned my love for alcohol into a hatred for it. I loved it so much that I now hate it, as I had absolute no FREE WILL to refuse it. I was completely controlled by that stuff. So . . . to be drinking Maxwell House instant coffee, the kind that comes with its own creamers and sugars, I feed myself half of their serving size (of the powder) and fill the rest with chocolate milk. - This way, it stains my expensive porcelain "teeth" much less.

You obviously know very little about healthy nutrition.

You must eat the whole fruit because many of the essential vitamins and minerals
are in the fibre of the fruit. That goes for vegetables also.

Taken from Healthline.com

Studies have shown that increasing soluble fiber, in particular, may improve
blood sugar and cholesterol levels (19, 20).

One study compared eating whole apples to drinking apple juice. It found that
drinking clear apple juice increased LDL (bad) cholesterol levels by 6.9%, compared
with eating whole apples. This effect is thought to be due to the fiber content of
whole apples (14).

What’s more, an observational study showed an increased risk of type 2 diabetes in
people who consumed fruit juices, whereas whole fruits were linked to a reduced risk (21).

People also tend to feel more full when they eat whole fruits, compared with when they
drink the juice equivalent (20, 22, 23).

One study compared the effects of blending and juicing on the nutrient content of
grapefruit. Results showed that blending, which retains more fiber, is a better technique
for obtaining higher levels of beneficial plant compounds (24).

 

[Inquisitor]

Ha! Well, I am getting much better at this drinking problem. It seems like drinking anything but water or pure juice is probably not good for us. I am just so thankful that the Lord had turned my love for alcohol into a hatred for it. I loved it so much that I now hate it, as I had absolute no FREE WILL to refuse it. I was completely controlled by that stuff. So . . . to be drinking Maxwell House instant coffee, the kind that comes with its own creamers and sugars, I feed myself half of their serving size (of the powder) and fill the rest with chocolate milk. - This way, it stains my expensive porcelain "teeth" much less.

Do you have any idea that million of people every year give up alcohol?

Nearly all of those people exercise some level of free will to do that.

Most are not Christian!

Usually alcoholics give up alcohol when they realize their lives are a
train wreck. I have heard countless testimonies of drunkards that have
given up the devil's amber fluid. Alcoholism is a very selfish and
powerful addiction.

 

[Rufus]

You haven't given an example. You have merely restated your claim that a lot of people has claimed that "God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency."

Who has even claimed that there is such a thing as "the sanctity and integrity of a persons free moral agency. Free will does not mean one's free moral agency. Free will means the freedom to keep or change one's own desires. One can keep one'sown desires against doing something while being forced to do it.

But God unilaterally changing our desires ,so that we cannot keep our own desires against doing something even though we want to keep them, is a violation of free will. Free will is not about moral agency, i.e. the ability freely to do moral or immoral acts.

Please try to challenge the definitions others use for free will, not straw man definitions.

I have addressed "free will" often. Some think the will of man is a "neutral" faculty. That man comes into the world not swayed by the other faculties. Some think the will of man is autonomous. That we have this God-given right of self-rule. That we have some kind of right to act independently of other.

Also, you have the will and desires backwards. You have the will wagging the desires, when in fact, it's the other way around. Our minds, passions and consciences constitute our desires which consist of our wants, cravings, wishes, covetings, intentions etc.. This is why scripture speaks so often to man's desires -- far more often than it does to man's will. The NC promise is that God would indeed unilaterally give his people a new heart which is the seat of all man's faculties. The promise includes a lot more than giving just a new will

Also, when God gives a person a new heart, it's for the reason that the old heart that's in natural man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all else! Don't you know that there is NOTHING sound in man? That the whole head is injured, the whole heart is afflicted? That from the sole of man's feet to the top of his head, there is no soundness in him? Don't you know the thoughts and intentions of man are evil continuously? That's there's nothing good in the natural man's flesh? So, how is God violating someone's corrupt will (and heart!) by graciously and mercifully setting him FREE FROM it with a new heart that will have new desires, new wants, new intentions, new thoughts, etc.. When God gives a person a new heart, he is in essence setting a prisoner of his old heart FREE from all its corrupt desires. Yet, in your world God would be doing an evil thing by setting the prisoners free!? Didn't Jesus say, "If the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed" (Jn 8:36)!? What in the world do you think he meant -- setting people free from what: From their virtuous, pious, humble, God-fearing lifestyles?