The Great Blessing Of Election Unto Salvation

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit take’s a little faith and a flexible spirit. Salvation’s happens first though. Have you received Jesus as your personal Lord and savior?

Baptism of the spirit is us being saved
are you sure your not talking about tha anointing if the spirit (the spirit coming in us)

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

as per predestination and election, i believe that God is the potter …

“Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker—one clay pot among many. Does the clay ask the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’?
Isaiah 45:9

“But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Romans 9:20

.”Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel
jeremiah 18:3-6

There is no doubt that God creates us for his purposes, for his good pleasure. not all that God has created is created for salvation, he has created some for assignments to try and test his people.

“21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”
Romans 9:21-23

“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 1:5

“For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb.”
Psalm 139:13

I do believe in the sovereign power of my God who predestined his chosen in christ before the foundation of the world; giving those he has chosen a type of intuition (for lack of a better word) to acknowledge something greater than himself, when they are outside and watch the wind blow through the leaves of the trees, they acknowledge Gods glory in all of His creation. The searching out that takes us down different rabbit holes trying to find Him becomes our quest, some find Jesus but some also find allah or molech.

 

[John146]

as per predestination and election, i believe that God is the potter …

“Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker—one clay pot among many. Does the clay ask the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘He has no hands’?
Isaiah 45:9

“But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Romans 9:20

.”Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel
jeremiah 18:3-6

There is no doubt that God creates us for his purposes, for his good pleasure. not all that God has created is created for salvation, he has created some for assignments to try and test his people.

“21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”
Romans 9:21-23

“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 1:5

“For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb.”
Psalm 139:13

I do believe in the sovereign power of my God who predestined his chosen in christ before the foundation of the world; giving those he has chosen a type of intuition (for lack of a better word) to acknowledge something greater than himself, when they are outside and watch the wind blow through the leaves of the trees, they acknowledge Gods glory in all of His creation. The searching out that takes us down different rabbit holes trying to find Him becomes our quest, some find Jesus but some also find allah or molech.

The context of predestination and election are never to salvation. Predestination is concerning the redemption of the body of those who are already in Christ. Election is to service to those already in Christ.

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

The context of predestination and election are never to salvation. Predestination is concerning the redemption of the body of those who are already in Christ. Election is to service to those already in Christ.

can you elaborate on this?

 

[John146]

can you elaborate on this?

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What is the adoption according to scripture?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is something the believer is waiting on. It is the redemption of the body. It is the end result of those in Christ. When a person believes the gospel and is placed in Christ, their destination is determined. That destination is the future adoption. It is when the believer is finally conformed into the image of Jesus Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you saying that the Christians who are not calvinists don't have the Spirit working in them?

HK,
I offered a positive statement of something I have seen happen dozens of times. You now try and twist what I said into this?
Here is what I said;
[What you refer to as an invasion is when God allows people to see truth in scripture and they seek to tell others of it].

This is a positive description of the energy and excitement of formerly religious ,natural men, who God regenerates , giving a new heart to and calling them from darkness to light. Do you think God works in this way?

[Natural men do not understand it , until the Spirit works in them.]
Unsaved people,ie, natural men, can be religious, but are not yet saved.

[Until then they scoff and speak about the teaching ,blissfully ignorant about what it is.]

I see this on these message boards all the time.

[I just want you to know that until Augustine came along, 400 years after Christ,]

How do you know what they believed? I tell you what you have done, you go on anti cal websites are greedily soak up their ignorant re-writes of history, as if that alone is the true eyewitness account! let me guess...now you want me to know Augustine was a former Manichean gnostic, and was under gnostic influenece,lol.....

[no one held to this type of doctrine on predestination.]

What makes you say something so foolish? I am suspecting you are intending to be a bit hostile, ok, I can adjust to that.
The Apostles themselves believed and taught the teaching, that is where we get it from. You and others will look for any reason and excuse to avoid scripture, and look for loopholes in history to avoid the plain teaching.
Your next appeal will be to the ECF's who began going apostate and leaving us with the corrupt RC. Church.

[Wheres waldo, will the real elect please stand up?]

Not up to speed on the waldo reference, but will be ready for you now.

 

[Iconoclast]

[I have listened to many sermons and debates on the subject, from James White for example. If he incorrectly defines calvinism then I guess thats that.]
Dr.White is a mainstream Calvinist, yes.

[You guys use the misrepresentation word so much whenever someone says something that logically follows from your belief system.]

I do not mind a bit of hostility or pushback from non Cals. It sort of happens often because of the weak teaching in many churches.I can answer anything you want to offer, Give your best objections, and reasoning. I will be able to demonstrate even from this very post, such caricatures....just keep in mind, you introduced it. I will not run from it at all. I have had many who have started out in full opposition to the teaching that have studied themselves into the position.

First warning sign I see in your post are the terms... you guys, and the second is....logically follows. LOL I have found over the years that what is claimed to logically follow is your caricature of truth, that no Calvinist actually believes, that you then want us to defend.

[If I were to say: God played lottery in heaven and decided who willl be saved and who isnt, since it has nothing to do with the person, its purely grace. The calvinist would be up in arms screaming MISREPRESENTATION!!!]

Confessional Christians are very aware of the Holy and perfect attributes of God. Let me ask you a question HK?

Do you think it is appropriate at all to speak of our Holy God as "playing a lottery" in heaven???
Don't you think that is even profane to type out? How is this acceptable as anything to consider?

[and they would say the exact same thing I said, with more scholarly and fancy language, for example: "God chose to save rebel sinners who hated Him, God was so gracious. If God was just He could have condemned them all, but God showed mercy! For grace to be grace it cannot be merited" ]

If a person attempts to get clarification on an issue, it should always be in respectful tones to start with. God, is God. he is not some old man that you can speak about as a joke.


Ive heard things like this from James White, and when you strip all the fancy language, what it boils down to is: Everyone is totally depraved, not seeking God

Dr.White and others take the teaching from the scriptures themselves like this;

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Then Paul expands on it:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[even though the Bible says some do seek God]
The bible clearly says no one seeks God, yet you suggest otherwise.

[and God wants people to seek Him but oh well) but God chose according to the good pleasure of His will to save some. Yet if I call that a heavenly lottery im "mocking" or "Misrepresenting". I just dont see the difference.]

Hopefully, you will consider the difference now, that you do not see yet.

I have two places that can offer help to any who "seek it"

ChristianForums Uncensored - Index (createaforum.com) new and open for questions

Home | Bibleinteraction (freeforums.net) more informational links available to help

 

[Iconoclast]

We can‘t forget He loved the whole world though. We can’t seperate people. And say God loved them, but he did not love the rest.

God tells us to love our enemy, its kind of hard when God says do as i do. Yet he did not love ALL his enemy as he commands us to

Hello EG,

Let me say this about that. We do not want to be "more Holy" than God Himself. What did God say about His choosing of Israel?
Amos3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
God had no trouble singling out one nation, and excluding the rest. Then not even all in that nation were chosen
Rom9:
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Now the gospel goes worldwide, but not everyone worldwide is going to be the object of the saving love of God....it will only be the children scattered worldwide who will be found
jn11:
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

From our view point, we offer the gospel to all. God has another plan at work.!

 

[Iconoclast]

But it is conditional

1. I am the door
2. Through me, IF ANYONE MAY COME IN,
3. The one who through me decides to come in will be saved.

Hello EG,
I understand why you might think this, but I would like you to consider that it is simply descriptive of the person who does come. It is not contingent, but an actual description of the one who comes
jn10:
9 I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.

10 `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.

11 `I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;

 

[Iconoclast]

i have been skeptical of this since i was a child, i used to speak in tongues before i understood scripture a little better, one thing i noticed when speaking in tongues is how i could easily slip into a trance like state which as i got older started to feel more like witchcraft, vain babbling and deep meditation. i no longer speak in tongues…

that being said… when i was 11 years old i had cysts on my vocal cords, a few members of my church and my dad laid hands on me, in an instant i felt a powerful rush shoot through my body, i was overtaken and fell to the floor, i remember trying to get up but the presence of God held me down while the prayer continued, i never felt such warmth all through my body and such peace. nobody was praying in tongues but they were praying fervently, binding and loosing…

the next time i went to the doctor my cysts were gone.. praise Jesus

i apologize for losing my train of thought but my point was that i don’t think that “tongues” is a necessity

Hello Mike,
The Christian life is very exciting in that as we serve God we offer life to dead sinners. God can and does heal today, according to His will. God used signs in wonders in History and during the foundational times of the Apostles.Eph.2:20-22.

I would like to be an Apostle, but the ones God has given have done exactly what He designed for them to do.
I have learned to be content with the great gift of scripture he has had them give to us, and as the Spirit illuminates these truths to us , we can do the greater works of preaching Christ worldwide. learn the word, use the word, serve God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hello EG,

Let me say this about that. We do not want to be "more Holy" than God Himself. What did God say about His choosing of Israel?
Amos3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
God had no trouble singling out one nation, and excluding the rest. Then not even all in that nation were chosen

But we are not talking about nations. We are talking about individuals. And even nations, God is full of grace. We saw this with Abraham, where he said the iniquity of the amorite's were not yet complete. God does not destroy a nation until there is no hope (He said even Sodom and Gomorrah would be spared if there were enough saved) And he relented his judgment on Ninevah because they repented at the preaching of Jonah

Rom9:
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Not sure what this has to do with John 3, God loved the world. that whoever believes.

Now the gospel goes worldwide, but not everyone worldwide is going to be the object of the saving love of God....it will only be the children scattered worldwide who will be found
jn11:
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

From our view point, we offer the gospel to all. God has another plan at work.!

The gospel is simple.

God demands everyone make a decision. We can believe, and be made alive, or we can remain condemned because of unbelief,.

My question still stands, why would we limit Gods love, when he demands we love our enemy, When God himself will not do what he demands of us.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hello EG,
I understand why you might think this, but I would like you to consider that it is simply descriptive of the person who does come. It is not contingent, but an actual description of the one who comes
jn10:
9 I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.

10 `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.

11 `I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;

Its still descriptive

I am the door. and if anyone come in

The thief does not come but to destroy (who is the thief but satan himself) I come that they may (again conditional) have life.

it all is based on who comes.. They they may (have the ability or possibility) to have life.

the reason Jesus came

 

[Hakawaka]

I am aware of Romans 3 and I have checked the quotes from Paul from the psalms.Here is an example of someone seeking God in the Bible:

Jeremiah 29.13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Many many examples

 

[Iconoclast]

But we are not talking about nations. We are talking about individuals. And even nations, God is full of grace. We saw this with Abraham, where he said the iniquity of the amorite's were not yet complete. God does not destroy a nation until there is no hope (He said even Sodom and Gomorrah would be spared if there were enough saved) And he relented his judgment on Ninevah because they repented at the preaching of Jonah

Hello EG, Thankfully we serve a loving God who shows abundant mercy to sinners.

Not sure what this has to do with John 3, God loved the world. that whoever believes.

The gospel is simple.

God demands everyone make a decision. We can believe, and be made alive, or we can remain condemned because of unbelief,.

That is why we are discussing it. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel
No where are we told that" men make a decision". Men have decided that they love sin, rather than God. That is why Jesus did not commit Himself unto them, see here;
jn2:
24 and Jesus himself was not trusting himself to them, because of his knowing all [men],

25 and because he had no need that any should testify concerning man, for he himself was knowing what was in man.

[My question still stands, why would we limit Gods love, when he demands we love our enemy, When God himself will not do what he demands of us].

Eg, God has an eternal Plan. It is not limited, but EXACT. It is unfolding right on time.
Eph3:
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[Iconoclast]

I am aware of Romans 3 and I have checked the quotes from Paul from the psalms.Here is an example of someone seeking God in the Bible:

Jeremiah 29.13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Many many examples

Those in jeremiah were also in Covenant with God. it was not neutral people. God urges people to seek Him, but they refuse His offers.

 

[Hakawaka]

Those in jeremiah were also in Covenant with God. it was not neutral people. God urges people to seek Him, but they refuse His offers.

See this is what I mean. "God urges people to seek HIm but they refuse"
WHY? Because God doesn't give them the irresistable grace to regenerate them. So its GOD's fault in this system of theology that people won't find Him. Even though God says He wants ALL to be saved

 

[Iconoclast]

See this is what I mean. "God urges people to seek HIm but they refuse"
WHY? Because God doesn't give them the irresistable grace to regenerate them. So its GOD's fault in this system of theology that people won't find Him. Even though God says He wants ALL to be saved

You cannot blame God for mans sin!
All non Cals try this. men love sin.

God has never intended to save all men who were ever born.
God saves those he has included in the Covenant of Redemption. No more, No less!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That is why we are discussing it. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel
No where are we told that" men make a decision".

now this makes no sense.

We are told to repent and believe

but then we are unable to make that decision

Men have decided that they love sin, rather than God.

Yes, Many have, but what of those who believe to the saving of the soul?

That is why Jesus did not commit Himself unto them, see here;
jn2:
24 and Jesus himself was not trusting himself to them, because of his knowing all [men],

25 and because he had no need that any should testify concerning man, for he himself was knowing what was in man.

This says he knew all men, and did not need their testimony.. It does not say man can not repent.

[My question still stands, why would we limit Gods love, when he demands we love our enemy, When God himself will not do what he demands of us].

Eg, God has an eternal Plan. It is not limited, but EXACT. It is unfolding right on time.
Eph3:
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Again, It still does not answer the question

1. God told us to love our enemy. in doing this we are like him

2. How can he hold us accountable for this, when he will nto do it himself?

 

[Iconoclast]

now this makes no sense.

We are told to repent and believe

but then we are unable to make that decision

Ok EG///good question!
When any sinner repents and believes he only does so, BECAUSE God has given him a new heart.
Is this just splitting hairs? NO.
We are told this in Jn 1:13....
Those who "received" salvation were described in this way;
13 Which were born,
not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man
but of God.

See that in red? The will of the flesh, the will of man, are not the cause of the new birth!
So, EG...why would you and others make man centered appeals to mans will, or mans flesh?
Salvation is of the Lord, born of the Spirit...can we agree here?
In other words, ANYONE WHO BELIEVES, has been the object of the unseen work of the Spirit of God.
You do not oppose this explanation.do you?
So why make fleshly appeals,...walk the aisle, raise your hand, sign a card, none of these save.


[Yes, Many have, but what of those who believe to the saving of the soul?]

Yes, they are the objects of God's everlasting love ;Jer31
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

This says he knew all men, and did not need their testimony.. It does not say man can not repent.

Again, It still does not answer the question

1. God told us to love our enemy. in doing this we are like him

2. How can he hold us accountable for this, when he will nto do it himself?

This is speaking of our individual responsibility to others.
God does not love all men with a saving love.
The saving love of God is only found IN Christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

hey bro. Can yu check your quotes in the futrure, this is the second time I have had to open your response and cut and past your response in a quote to respond to you.

Everlasting-Grace said:
now this makes no sense.
We are told to repent and believe

but then we are unable to make that decision
Ok EG///good question!
When any sinner repents and believes he only does so, BECAUSE God has given him a new heart.

God offers everyone a new heart. They have to recieve it. God is not a respector of persons.

Is this just splitting hairs? NO.
We are told this in Jn 1:13....
Those who "received" salvation were described in this way;
13 Which were born,
not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man
but of God.

I agree
Not of blood (my parents can not make me saved if they are saved, it does not pass to me)
I can not will myself to heaven, if I could. Christ died in vail, God has to save me
No one can will me to heaven, and I can not will anyone else to heaven, again, god must save not us.

And god told us how to be saved, But as many as have recieved him, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God. I can go on and on. But this one verse says it perfectly

See that in red? The will of the flesh, the will of man, are not the cause of the new birth!
So, EG...why would you and others make man centered appeals to mans will, or mans flesh?

We are not. Why would you attribute something to us that is not true?

I can not will myself to heaven, or will myself to forgiveness. I do not know where this thinking even came from.

Salvation is of the Lord, born of the Spirit...can we agree here?

yes, Born again, of the spirit. And jesus told us how.. As moses lifted the serpent, so to must the son of man bel lifted up that WHOEVER believes will never perish but have eternal life, For god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life.

We must look to the dross in faith. God will then save us as he saved those people back on moses day. Not because they willed it. But because they trusted in God and had faith God would keep his promise. If they did not. They would not have looked.

In other words, ANYONE WHO BELIEVES, has been the object of the unseen work of the Spirit of God.

I agree, but God does not have to make me born again to get me to believe, god has toe power to bring me to faith without all of that. And many resources to help make this happen. but we still must chose to believe.

You do not oppose this explanation.do you?

I appose the fatalistic explanation of what that says

So why make fleshly appeals,...walk the aisle, raise your hand, sign a card, none of these save.

Your right.

But if I call on the name of the lord. Whether I do it at the time i did those things or not. I will be saved.

I prayed for months God would save me, One day I was led to walk the eisle. And a deacon took me aside and showed me the gospel. And for the first time I truly understood, not in fear as before. But in hope. And i did just that, i called on the ame of the lord. And asked him to save a wretched man as myself.

I went hime justified and born again with a new heart. Not before that

[Yes, Many have, but what of those who believe to the saving of the soul?]

Yes, they are the objects of God's everlasting love ;Jer31
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.


This says he knew all men, and did not need their testimony.. It does not say man can not repent.

Again, It still does not answer the question

1. God told us to love our enemy. in doing this we are like him

2. How can he hold us accountable for this, when he will nto do it himself?
This is speaking of our individual responsibility to others.
God does not love all men with a saving love.
The saving love of God is only found IN Christ.

Then God tells us to do something he himself will not do.

I can’t follow a God who tells me to do what he will not do.

and I certainly can not be given hope through that God.. what hope would I have that he did nto love me either. Thats no a hope i can be sustained by