Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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Uh, how is that proof that those being commanded to believe have not had their ears unstopped and their hearts circumcized already? You have not had the aha gotcha moment you thought you did. The command to circumcise their hearts was repeatedly given also, and can you tell me who was able to do that to their own self when we are specifically told it is a spiritual act accomplished the Spirit, and not by human hands? God has consigned all/everyone to disobedience so He may have mercy on all. Cue crying about how unfair you think that is.
Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Beautiful! Thank you for saying this. Spiritual Circumcision was taught by Stephen in Acts 7 for the first time in the New Testament (according to the timeline, chronological study of the Bible. And you are CORRECT!!! Saul was there to hear this teaching and no doubt, he remembered it. This is so important!! Later named Paul, this master of doctrine unpacks Spiritual Circumcision for us, but he did so in a way that nearly all Christians are unable to see it. But Paul . . . Oh I love Acts chapter 7! Stephen even talks about Abraham, our Father of Faith, the Father of the Family of Circumcision. Acts 7 is central to the entire Bible.
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I was looking up something the other day and came across the same question being asked by me going back months. Turning to Christ, is this an act of belief and/or faith when done by an unbeliever? No, nor is it being saved. Is it part of the process of one coming to believe? I would say so, yes. It is an act of the seeker, and, God wants us to seek Him, it is explicitly written, and it is promised He will reveal Himself to those who do, all the while, He is drawing us with loving kindness, being patient with us. To hear some speak they must be outraged that God is drawing them without their explicit permission, such a violation of their imagined free will. Then there is circumcision of ears, and circumcision of heart. Do these make one saved? Some may think so, but I do not.
They believed they could overcome the Giants because they knew God would fight for them.
And sounds good about you enjoying this conversation.
I will discuss it then fully
And sounds good about you enjoying this conversation.
I will discuss it then fully
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I hope this is not too short-lived as I am about to elaborate on my comment to Magenta and am not sure whether you might disagree, but it has relevance to your comment as well. I consider the veil being taken away in similitude to the circumcision of the heart. That is, in past times, my heart was callus toward God's love for me but once I heard that God so loved... I began to consider the possibility of that to actually be truth and wonder at that persisted until that moment I came to the realization I had nothing to lose by addressing Him directly, even though I had considered approaching Him was at the risk death, and so approached boldly, though not without fear thinking, "If I die, I die." ... And He 'surprised' me! By giving me audience! attending to me as if... He loved me!!
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There may be some mixture of oil and water which might explain lack of emulsion without the use of a good blender. That is, one is speaking of water while the other is speaking of oil and a wooden spoon does little to emulsify them into a nice palatable vinaigrette.... what was I talking about... ?
Oh yes! It may be when one speaks a command, the other hears it as a demand, but then, it sometimes needs to sounds so in the circumstance such as one might find themselves in when they see a child toddling toward the deep end of a pool and say, "stop!" with and urgency that may be taken as such as a demand. But there is a nuance which I see as between an urgent request and a dismissive demand. For example, "Stop, or I'll shoot!" and "Stop, or you'll die!"... (not sure if that reads like I think it does)
Oh yes! It may be when one speaks a command, the other hears it as a demand, but then, it sometimes needs to sounds so in the circumstance such as one might find themselves in when they see a child toddling toward the deep end of a pool and say, "stop!" with and urgency that may be taken as such as a demand. But there is a nuance which I see as between an urgent request and a dismissive demand. For example, "Stop, or I'll shoot!" and "Stop, or you'll die!"... (not sure if that reads like I think it does
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They believed they could overcome the Giants because they knew God would fight for them.
And sounds good about you enjoying this conversation.
I will discuss it then fully
And sounds good about you enjoying this conversation.
I will discuss it then fully
• Numbers 14:30 NLT – “You will not enter and occupy the land I swore to give you. The only exceptions will be Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.”
• Numbers 32:12 NLT – “The only exceptions are Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua son of Nun, for they have wholeheartedly followed the LORD.”
Did you see that? They are "wholehearted." My friend, this is Spiritual Circumcision. Their hearts had no stone within them. They had been Purified by the Lord. They had been given the Spiritual Gifts according to the Covenant of Circumcision established in Abraham. But this Covenant is Mysterious, as the Lord discussed it in a way that even the Jews would misunderstand. If we look at Ephesians Chapters 1 and 3, we find that Paul references the hidden, Mysterious Plan of God and how it had been kept hidden until his "day." Gosh there is so much to say; so much to add!
But let's look at more details of Joshua and Caleb. This might astound you.
Num 14:24 KJV - "But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it."
Deut 34:09 NIV "Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses."
The footnotes of the NIV say that the word "spirit" is also translated as "Spirit." See Also Num 27:18 The LORD replied, “Take Joshua son of Nun, who has the Spirit in him, and lay your hands on him."
Believe me, and I beg of you to understand patiently . . . I have spent many years studying this doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, doing my best to make sense of what the Lord is wanting us to understand. It is clear that what was unique about these two is that they were wholehearted, which is a heart that the Spirit can Indwell, lead, and even cause a person to trust and obey. Therefore, it was clear that the others could not obey because they had not received this Spiritual Circumcision.
Now here's the thing: If all of Israel had Circumcised hearts, there would be no need for them to have been given the Law, for their hearts would have been Purified and their sinning would have stopped. Those who receive Spiritual Circumcision are no longer held accountable to the written Law, but are held accountable instead by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, which is discussed in Romans 8:2.
So, based upon this evidence, I would have to say that no, these people were not saved, for they were held under the Law that only unsaved Jews could be held accountable. BUT . . . this does not mean that God would not give them the chance to place true Faith in Christ when He descended into the "earth" and preached to the Spirits (of humans), those of times past.
Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."
The only people who were Saved, as it seems, were those who received Spiritual Circumcision and were thus made Right with Christ the God, but not God the Father. And while this is a controversial idea that I humbly offer (because of certain Scripture), no one can be made Right with God the Father except through the physical Work of Christ on the cross. This is how and why Abraham is our Father and model of Faith, for true Faith was granted before Christ! All Holy men and women according to Hebrews 11, received Spiritual Circumcision, Repentance, and the Holy Spirit as a leader and guide. But they lacked the opportunity to place their Faith in Christ which, as said, would eventually make them Right with God the Father. So stunning!
I know these things seem new and perhaps unusual. But I beg of you to see that I offer Scripture for everything that I bring to the table. But please know that there is so, so, so much more! And when we see all of the pieces of this hidden Mystery before us on the table, we can piece them together and see the Eternal Plan of God . . . it is staggering! What God has embedded in this Book by so many different men and women, and over so many thousands of years, is unparalleled. There is no Story on Earth that is more shocking and incredible in this way than our remarkable and Holy Bible.
If we could sit down together and go over these things, I am confident that you would be shocked, and when the reality of these things hit you, like me, you would become angry at our preachers and teachers . . . that they know these things, but refuse to share them. It is a disgrace that these abominations would prevent us from knowing the full Story of God, the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ.
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100%!!!!!! I stopped reading right there just to make this comment. hehe You got it! This is what the entire Bible is all about! If we would only process all of Scripture through Colossians 9-15, we might just crap our pants. You won't believe it if you do that. Oh man . . . this group is growing!!!!! I am on the verge of tears for us!!!
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I hope this is not too short-lived as I am about to elaborate on my comment to Magenta and am not sure whether you might disagree, but it has relevance to your comment as well. I consider the veil being taken away in similitude to the circumcision of the heart. That is, in past times, my heart was callus toward God's love for me but once I heard that God so loved... I began to consider the possibility of that to actually be truth and wonder at that persisted until that moment I came to the realization I had nothing to lose by addressing Him directly, even though I had considered approaching Him was at the risk death, and so approached boldly, though not without fear thinking, "If I die, I die." ... And He 'surprised' me! By giving me audience! attending to me as if... He loved me!!
2 Corinthians 3:12-18 NLT - 12 Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."
Now, if you go back and read this story from the Old Testament, we can see HOW the Lord has kept this Plan of Salvation hidden from everyone! But thank goodness, Paul clarifies the meaning of this Veil . . . the Veil of the Sinful Nature, that can only be taken away by Christ!!!
That Veil is the Sinful Nature and is removed by Christ, the Holy Operation of Faith:
Colossians 2:11-13 KJV - 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses . . ."
Colossians 2:11-13 NLT - 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
When Moses lowered the Veil, the Jews could understand and finally obey, but when he blocked the Light (of Christ) from shining upon them, they could no longer believe, trust, nor obey. This is the same Light discussed in Gen 1:3-4!
Genesis 1:3-4 NLT - 3 Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness."
This is the same Light that shown down upon Jesus's tomb when He rose from the dead, for He is that Light! We need to recognize this every morning when the Light of Dawn shines down upon us. It is a reminder of what He has done for us! For just hours before, the sun set, and the Light of Christ is gone from the Earth, for this represents His death. But every morning, God shows us His Power! Every morning we are shown that His Son has risen from the grave! How inconceivable! How miraculous. How stunning. How staggering is our Powerful, Almighty God!
I could keep going and going and going. The whole Bible revolves around this conversation! So, please pardon my grammatical errors, I'm typing at about 70 words per minute, and I'm in pain.
To be perfectly honest here, I am Jewish and attended Mishnah like all male Jews do. Circumcision, is a very basic principle because in the Law they removed the foreskin and under Christ and for the Gentiles it was done inwardly in the heart. So this is all very basic knowledge all throughout the Mikra and no surprise it would continue in the New Covenant.
And yes, the work on the Cross would go as far back as it does going forward to this current day and tomorrow should tomorrow come and beyond. But the Wilderness people continually rejected God and even did not fulfill the Law most of the time. Much of why Moses set up leadership within each of the 12 Tribes. So that is very debatable but not many Jews would buy it.
And yes, the work on the Cross would go as far back as it does going forward to this current day and tomorrow should tomorrow come and beyond. But the Wilderness people continually rejected God and even did not fulfill the Law most of the time. Much of why Moses set up leadership within each of the 12 Tribes. So that is very debatable but not many Jews would buy it.
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Powerful, Almighty God, I ask that you continue to open the hearts of these Blessed men and women. Please Lord, we need people to see and understand your Spiritual Circumcision, and that it is the Holy Key to knowing your Bible, and You, Your Son and Spirit. We need you to continue to awaken each of us, including myself, Lord. None of us is the Chief of your Bible, but only You. Help us to be humble and Gracious. Help us to NOT be like Bildad, Zophar and Eliphas who believed they had all the answers. Help us to humbly come to you with a heart that seeks to know, Love, and Obey you with all our heart . . . so that we might Live. In the Holy Name of Your Powerful, Almighty Son, Jesus.
Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."
Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."
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