I don't think you will find this as an absolute statement from scripture, but I believe it to be true!
Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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This?
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
No kidding! I'm too old, or perhaps my memory isn't very good, but I just can't keep track of what I told to whom. In fact, this is usually the reason for my backing out of extended conversations; I simply cannot remember what I've said and it is a massive waste of my time to recount and figure out previous interactions. It isn't that I don't want to engage, per se, but I may have some sort of psychological problem . . . maybe??!! Yes, maybe.
"How can God who rescues the helpless, hopeless, powerless dead from their grave violate anyone's will? "
I love that, assuming that I understand you correctly. Those who have yet to receive the Circumcision of Christ are in such that state, a state of Spiritual Death. Therefore, and as you say, how could their will be violated if they don't even understand the predicament they're in?
Look, 99:9% of all people have yet to experience the Terror of the Lord. Luckily, I have, and as Paul taught, knowing this Terror compels us to teach, precisely, the things he taught, and particularly that of Spiritual Circumcision.
Colossians 2:11-13 NLT - 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
If a person has not received Christ's Circumcision, they will have no clue that they are on the Spiritual side of death and that they cannot simply choose their way out of it (Spiritual death). One must cross over from death to Spiritual Life before anything else can happen, and having the Grace to speak of this firsthand, if people knew the UNBELIEVABLY HORRIFIC evil that is waiting at their door, they would beg and scream to God that He would change them, SO THAT, they could "make the choice" to put genuine Faith into His Son, and the Power than raised Him from the grave.
But here is the thing: If a person should be granted the beyond horrific experience of the Terror of the Lord, when God saves them from this certain death, their choice to believe in, trust, obey, and follow the Lord . . . will have been made. Anyone who has experienced this Holy Terror will do all things to avoid it, and that would include the likes of Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Gary Ridgeway. These evil men, having experienced pure evil, would want nothing to do with it . . . ever.
I hear you, but any person who has received Circumcision of ears, eyes, and heart, are open to all ideas that are at minimum, reasonable . . . and the one you have offered . . . is just that. So, thank you!
…but Jesus came and died—
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
- John 1:29
And everyone does make the choice that is consistent with their nature. The Natural Man chooses according to his natural, sinful, evil, depraved, dead nature. Conversely, the spiritual man (who has been made alive by God at the point of regeneration) will choose according to the nature imparted to him when life was.
Be patient, sister. I'm working on something that I think will explain these "mysteries" far better than I can at the moment due to time constraints. I discovered something online that I want to study first that might fit the bill perfectly.
No kidding! I'm too old, or perhaps my memory isn't very good, but I just can't keep track of what I told to whom. In fact, this is usually the reason for my backing out of extended conversations; I simply cannot remember what I've said and it is a massive waste of my time to recount and figure out previous interactions. It isn't that I don't want to engage, per se, but I may have some sort of psychological problem . . . maybe??!! Yes, maybe.
"How can God who rescues the helpless, hopeless, powerless dead from their grave violate anyone's will? "
I love that, assuming that I understand you correctly. Those who have yet to receive the Circumcision of Christ are in such that state, a state of Spiritual Death. Therefore, and as you say, how could their will be violated if they don't even understand the predicament they're in?
Look, 99:9% of all people have yet to experience the Terror of the Lord. Luckily, I have, and as Paul taught, knowing this Terror compels us to teach, precisely, the things he taught, and particularly that of Spiritual Circumcision.
Colossians 2:11-13 NLT - 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
If a person has not received Christ's Circumcision, they will have no clue that they are on the Spiritual side of death and that they cannot simply choose their way out of it (Spiritual death). One must cross over from death to Spiritual Life before anything else can happen, and having the Grace to speak of this firsthand, if people knew the UNBELIEVABLY HORRIFIC evil that is waiting at their door, they would beg and scream to God that He would change them, SO THAT, they could "make the choice" to put genuine Faith into His Son, and the Power than raised Him from the grave.
But here is the thing: If a person should be granted the beyond horrific experience of the Terror of the Lord, when God saves them from this certain death, their choice to believe in, trust, obey, and follow the Lord . . . will have been made. Anyone who has experienced this Holy Terror will do all things to avoid it, and that would include the likes of Adolf Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Gary Ridgeway. These evil men, having experienced pure evil, would want nothing to do with it . . . ever.
Your logic is sound. How can the dead ever know they WERE dead until AFTER they received life!? Spiritual Death is ubiquitous since it affects the entire soul and heart. Can a fish know that there is an environment other than water prior to it itself being outside of it?
Sorry, ended up including a lot more verses here than I thought I would - kind of like eating peanuts - once you start it's hard to stop.
Not sure if this will help, but in addition to Rufus's post - which I believe directly goes to answering your question - it might also be useful to note that the above verses were from the old covenant. And unlike the old, the new contains no stipulations whereby God can "find fault" with anyone (He) placed under it.
[Gen 17:7 KJV]
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[Jer 31:31 KJV]
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[Rom 9:25 KJV]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[Heb 7:18 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[Heb 8:8-10 KJV]
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[Heb 8:13 KJV]
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
[Heb 12:24 KJV]
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Thanks Roger, but I don’t exactly see your point. Are you saying that free will was allowed in the OC but not in the NC?
To the the NR (non-Reformed) whiners and complainers who insist that God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency, several biblical passages come to mind that show that an all- good, all-wise, all-just, all-loving, all-powerful God does this all the time -- with apparent impunity, no less. 
I'm going to stick to just two examples from the Exodus narrative. I'll jquote specific passages and then you can read them in their larger context if you so desire. But remember: God sent Moses to Abraham's idol-worshiping descendants (Josh 24:2, 14) to RESCUE them from their bondage (Ex 3:8; 5:23). God "came down" on a mission of mercy and compassion. He "came down" to do GOOD to the helpless, ancient Israelites (Ex 3:8; 5:23 who were powerless to help themselves . We shouldn't forget this context! Now, here are the passages:
Ex 5:17-21; 6:6-9
17 Pharaoh said, "Lazy, that's what you are — lazy! That is why you keep saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.' 18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw , yet you must produce your full quota of bricks."
19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us....
6 "Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the LORD.'"
9 Moses reported this to the Israelites, but they did not listen to him because of their discouragement and cruel bondage.
NIV
Clearly the Israelites were not happy with their predicament which worsened exponentially AFTER Moses' first encounter with Pharaoh. (Even Moses himself started to doubt!) So, it appears these Israelites were suddenly not too keen on their impending deliverance. This is Moving Violation Number One. (I say "moving" because in spite of the Israelites' attitude, God moved ahead with his Rescue Operation anyway!) Such audacious termerity! It looks like God is not too good on reading body language.
Exhibit B:
Ex 14:10-12
10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the LORD. 11 They said to Moses, "Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn't we say to you in Egypt, 'Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians'? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!"
NIV
Welcome to some real insights into the NATURAL MAN'S darkened, depraved mind! Can you imagine? The Hebrews asked Moses, "What have you done TO us by bringing us from Egypt" -- by freeing us from our captors -- delivering us from our chains of slavery? They wanted to go back! True Lovers of the Darkness! (I especially wonder if one special poster here will tell us that nonethless these ancient, idol-worshiping Hebrews really didn't hate God in their heart of hearts!?)
But God in this plot must be the real super villan (putting Pharaoh to shame); for once again, he ignored their body language. He sovereignly moved ahead with his plan. But according to the worldly thinking of you NR folks, God should have ceased and desisted immediately and granted the Hebrews their ill-fated, foolish wishes! But he didn't. So...Moving Violation Number Two!
I can hardly wait to hear from you worldly wise spinmeisters and how you'll twist these passages to make them say something different. But the very sad reality is that it's obvious to me that whatever God y'all have been believing in isn't the God of Divine Revelation. Idol worship is still alive and well and thriving...even in Christendom.
And I have more such passages waiting in the wings for those who will deny what the passages above say.
I'm going to stick to just two examples from the Exodus narrative. I'll jquote specific passages and then you can read them in their larger context if you so desire. But remember: God sent Moses to Abraham's idol-worshiping descendants (Josh 24:2, 14) to RESCUE them from their bondage (Ex 3:8; 5:23). God "came down" on a mission of mercy and compassion. He "came down" to do GOOD to the helpless, ancient Israelites (Ex 3:8; 5:23 who were powerless to help themselves . We shouldn't forget this context! Now, here are the passages:Ex 5:17-21; 6:6-9
17 Pharaoh said, "Lazy, that's what you are — lazy! That is why you keep saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.' 18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw , yet you must produce your full quota of bricks."
19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us....
6 "Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the LORD.'"
9 Moses reported this to the Israelites, but they did not listen to him because of their discouragement and cruel bondage.
NIV
Clearly the Israelites were not happy with their predicament which worsened exponentially AFTER Moses' first encounter with Pharaoh. (Even Moses himself started to doubt!) So, it appears these Israelites were suddenly not too keen on their impending deliverance. This is Moving Violation Number One. (I say "moving" because in spite of the Israelites' attitude, God moved ahead with his Rescue Operation anyway!) Such audacious termerity! It looks like God is not too good on reading body language.
Exhibit B:
Ex 14:10-12
10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the LORD. 11 They said to Moses, "Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn't we say to you in Egypt, 'Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians'? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!"
NIV
Welcome to some real insights into the NATURAL MAN'S darkened, depraved mind! Can you imagine? The Hebrews asked Moses, "What have you done TO us by bringing us from Egypt" -- by freeing us from our captors -- delivering us from our chains of slavery? They wanted to go back! True Lovers of the Darkness! (I especially wonder if one special poster here will tell us that nonethless these ancient, idol-worshiping Hebrews really didn't hate God in their heart of hearts!?)
But God in this plot must be the real super villan (putting Pharaoh to shame); for once again, he ignored their body language. He sovereignly moved ahead with his plan. But according to the worldly thinking of you NR folks, God should have ceased and desisted immediately and granted the Hebrews their ill-fated, foolish wishes! But he didn't. So...Moving Violation Number Two!
I can hardly wait to hear from you worldly wise spinmeisters and how you'll twist these passages to make them say something different. But the very sad reality is that it's obvious to me that whatever God y'all have been believing in isn't the God of Divine Revelation. Idol worship is still alive and well and thriving...even in Christendom.
And I have more such passages waiting in the wings for those who will deny what the passages above say.
You are already doing a very good job. In fact, I'm not sure of what is happening, but more and more people seem to be waking up to the core teaching of becoming Spiritually Awakened. I hope that this is God beginning to make His next move in His Almighty, Powerful, and Eternal Plan! I hope so!! Let's go . . . Almighty God!! We cannot wait to see you!!
YES!!! I have often equated this with our ability to dream . . . and I might add that this ability is no accident, but a physical pattern that we humans are to associate with the Spiritual Awakening that only He can offer.
When we are physically asleep and dreaming, particularly a dream that is unpleasant, if not scary, unless we have the ability to recognize that we are dreaming (and I somehow do), we don't know that we're asleep until we wake up. And once we wake up from such a dream, how often have we all said to ourselves, "Whew! I'm so glad that that was only a dream!"
Rufus my friend . . . you have found the absolute core teaching of the ENTIRE Bible. That you are seeing these things, if you were to start all over with Day 1 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, you would find that Spiritual Awakening (being released from captivity), is the utter center of the entire Bible. I'll never forget when I discovered Genesis 1:3-4, and more, I'll never forget my gaping mouth when the Apostle Paul taught and confirmed the hidden, Mysterious Plan of God within it! Just unbelievable. This Bible is such an absolute Miracle!
Genesis 1:3-4 NLT - "Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. Then he separated the light from the darkness."
2 Corinthians 4:6-7 NLT - "For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ. We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves."
Rufus. I know this is rather dramatic, but I beg of you with my life that you continue to this amazing study of Spiritual Circumcision, for if you make this teaching the focus of your entire life, you will never be the same. This has been my focus of study for the last five years, and I continue to learn more and more. I simply cannot tell you how much this will change not only your life, but your understanding of the entire Bible in how it all fits together.
It's true . . . that strange, creepy Word . . . Circumcision is the primary method by which God has caused the world to be confused, from the Day it was instituted in Abraham and Sarah (Genesis 17—which happens to be Day 17 of the timeline, chronological study plan) to today.
My time is limited, but if you remain on this most Holy path and realize that you belong to the Family of Circumcision, my door of time will be swung wide open for you. I beg of you to continue this study!!
To the the NR (non-Reformed) whiners and complainers who insist that God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency, several biblical passages come to mind that show that an all- good, all-wise, all-just, all-loving, all-powerful God does this all the time -- with apparent impunity, no less.
Ex 5:17-21; 6:6-9
17 Pharaoh said, "Lazy, that's what you are — lazy! That is why you keep saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.' 18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw , yet you must produce your full quota of bricks."
19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us....
6 "Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the LORD.'"
9 Moses reported this to the Israelites, but they did not listen to him because of their discouragement and cruel bondage.
NIV
Clearly the Israelites were not happy with their predicament which worsened exponentially AFTER Moses' first encounter with Pharaoh. (Even Moses himself started to doubt!) So, it appears these Israelites were suddenly not too keen on their impending deliverance. This is Moving Violation Number One. (I say "moving" because in spite of the Israelites' attitude, God moved ahead with his Rescue Operation anyway!) Such audacious termerity! It looks like God is not too good on reading body language.
Exhibit B:
Ex 14:10-12
10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the LORD. 11 They said to Moses, "Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn't we say to you in Egypt, 'Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians'? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!"
NIV
Welcome to some real insights into the NATURAL MAN'S darkened, depraved mind! Can you imagine? The Hebrews asked Moses, "What have you done TO us by bringing us from Egypt" -- by freeing us from our captors -- delivering us from our chains of slavery? They wanted to go back! True Lovers of the Darkness! (I especially wonder if one special poster here will tell us that nonethless these ancient, idol-worshiping Hebrews really didn't hate God in their heart of hearts!?)
But God in this plot must be the real super villan (putting Pharaoh to shame); for once again, he ignored their body language. He sovereignly moved ahead with his plan. But according to the worldly thinking of you NR folks, God should have ceased and desisted immediately and granted the Hebrews their ill-fated, foolish wishes! But he didn't. So...Moving Violation Number Two!
I can hardly wait to hear from you worldly wise spinmeisters and how you'll twist these passages to make them say something different. But the very sad reality is that it's obvious to me that whatever God y'all have been believing in isn't the God of Divine Revelation. Idol worship is still alive and well and thriving...even in Christendom.
And I have more such passages waiting in the wings for those who will deny what the passages above say.
Do you think Moses was Elect? Do you think the Israelites were Elect?
Oh no Rufus!?!?!?!???!!!!! Are you sure God makes plans and decisions and carries them out without first consulting us??? How dare you suggest such a thing knowing more than a few people are going to get their knickers in a knot thinking about how unfair it all is.To the the NR (non-Reformed) whiners and complainers who insist that God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency, several biblical passages come to mind that show that an all- good, all-wise, all-just, all-loving, all-powerful God does this all the time -- with apparent impunity, no less.
Thanks Roger, but I don’t exactly see your point. Are you saying that free will was allowed in the OC but not in the NC?
As I understood it (and I could be wrong), I thought you might inadvertently have attempted to apply the terms and conditions of the OC and carried them forward for the NC, since you chose verses that were part of God's OC demands and were based solely upon their keeping of His laws and commandments. For those under the NC, however, a requirement to "make a choice" no longer exists, although those who become saved as a result do choose Christ.
First rightly define "dead". That is your fatal flaw BTW.
God defines dead as separation from Him. Adam and Eve died when they ate. Did they fall over backwards instantaneously? NO. On the contrary, they had God given sensibilities whereby.......THEY REPENTED, CONFESSED THEIR SIN, and RIGHTLY put their trust and faith in Gods goodness and mercy. And God forgave and redeemed them.
Can those separated from Him in terms of perfect fellowship and obedience know about the true God and respond to His Word in a manner that He desires?
Absolutely YES. As did Nineveh, the Gibeonites, and endless individuals great and small so noted in the Bible.
And in precisely the same manner as did Adam and Eve! Repentance, confession and faith.
There is NO DOUBT in my mind that the account of Moses and Israel ALONE is MORE than enough to make a believer out of anyone. Right now. Today. But like pharaoh, they harden their hearts. Then comes judgement.
Others do read context. So should you.
Earlier in the story:
NKJ Exod1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive.
- Apparently there's not only some God Consciousness in Israel, but further, the fear of God and the unregenerate making choices to disobey their captors and live by their God Consciousness and Godly Fear.
- It seems unregenerate people can understand oppressive lives in bondage and cry out for something better.
- It seems like free will in action seeking help.
- It seems the Lord God Savior does honor willful cries for help. This is how this project of the Lord began. Unregenerate people with God Consciousness knowing they needed a Savior and willfully crying out for Him.
- Surely if we dropped the theological presupposition we strive so hard to push, we can find some proper spiritual analogies like the spiritually dead recognizing their plight, seeking help, willing to be saved by a powerful and merciful Savior, and choosing to follow Him even though severe testing makes them fear and doubt and complain along the way.
I sure hope you don't share any more of your thoughts on this because these people never made it to the Promised Land. So God did not save them. He saved their offspring. And God kept His Covenant to Abraham through the offspring. So you have completely missed the entire point. God only brought Believers to the Promised Land. Not these non believers who actually lived in God's Miraculous Grace for 40 years.To the the NR (non-Reformed) whiners and complainers who insist that God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency, several biblical passages come to mind that show that an all- good, all-wise, all-just, all-loving, all-powerful God does this all the time -- with apparent impunity, no less.
Ex 5:17-21; 6:6-9
17 Pharaoh said, "Lazy, that's what you are — lazy! That is why you keep saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.' 18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw , yet you must produce your full quota of bricks."
19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us....
6 "Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the LORD.'"
9 Moses reported this to the Israelites, but they did not listen to him because of their discouragement and cruel bondage.
NIV
Clearly the Israelites were not happy with their predicament which worsened exponentially AFTER Moses' first encounter with Pharaoh. (Even Moses himself started to doubt!) So, it appears these Israelites were suddenly not too keen on their impending deliverance. This is Moving Violation Number One. (I say "moving" because in spite of the Israelites' attitude, God moved ahead with his Rescue Operation anyway!) Such audacious termerity! It looks like God is not too good on reading body language.
Exhibit B:
Ex 14:10-12
10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the LORD. 11 They said to Moses, "Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn't we say to you in Egypt, 'Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians'? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!"
NIV
Welcome to some real insights into the NATURAL MAN'S darkened, depraved mind! Can you imagine? The Hebrews asked Moses, "What have you done TO us by bringing us from Egypt" -- by freeing us from our captors -- delivering us from our chains of slavery? They wanted to go back! True Lovers of the Darkness! (I especially wonder if one special poster here will tell us that nonethless these ancient, idol-worshiping Hebrews really didn't hate God in their heart of hearts!?)
But God in this plot must be the real super villan (putting Pharaoh to shame); for once again, he ignored their body language. He sovereignly moved ahead with his plan. But according to the worldly thinking of you NR folks, God should have ceased and desisted immediately and granted the Hebrews their ill-fated, foolish wishes! But he didn't. So...Moving Violation Number Two!
I can hardly wait to hear from you worldly wise spinmeisters and how you'll twist these passages to make them say something different. But the very sad reality is that it's obvious to me that whatever God y'all have been believing in isn't the God of Divine Revelation. Idol worship is still alive and well and thriving...even in Christendom.
And I have more such passages waiting in the wings for those who will deny what the passages above say.
You are so short sided on your comprehension of the Word of God it gets to become a chore to see you straining a gnat attempting to swallow a camel most of the time.