Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[HeIsHere]

Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,

Indeed, just a discussion board.
I would agree you are good at rolling with the punches (metaphorically speaking) and trying to stay on topic.

 

[Magenta]

I try to stay away from calling people liars, it is dumb on a discussion board.

Telling us we're okay making Jesus a liar... such a clever way to slander those you disagree with.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Telling us we're okay making Jesus a liar... such a clever way to slander those you disagree with.

And there is so much unloving slander here. With cancer that doctors don't want to treat, I simply have no room for such slander, but I would call it hatred. When I can find a forum that adheres the below, I will leave this place in an instant.

Romans 15:5-7 NLT - "May God, who gives this patience and encouragement, help you live in complete harmony with each other, as is fitting for followers of Christ Jesus. Then all of you can join together with one voice, giving praise and glory to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept each other just as Christ has accepted you so that God will be given glory."

Why these passages that I keep posting are ignored is clear and obvious, these people who refuse to be kind do not possess the free will to stop causing harm and damage to the Body of Christ. Their free will is . . . not available to them. They simply cannot stop spreading their hatred.

 

[Mem]

This is the point, Mem. I easily read what you wrote and others do not. What I initially noted when I read the first @2ndTimothyGroup response to you was a changing of your words. I've noticed this several times with a few posters. Words and concepts are being twisted.

To give the benefit of doubt, we may simply think they do not understand. And they may not because they think entirely differently. The various sides to the arguments have a very different structure of thinking from the foundation up. The longer we interact, the greater the twisting. Then the personal attacks and other fallacious argumentation including things like, you don't understand the Word of God, or you don't have the Spirit, even you're not Christian.

It's all a nasty game. At best it's the factions I in part showed from Scripture re: Christian infancy according to Paul in 1Cor. At worst it's something else.

I do not need to follow the Synod of Dort

All of this make me think of trying to learn from this guy how to make Swedish meatballs:

 

[Cameron143]

Do you agree with the following? If not, what would you change to make it say what you believe?

1. Due to sin all of mankind is completely sinful, or depraved. Every part of fallen man is corrupted by sin. He is a creature that is incapable of obeying the law of God.

2. We cannot thwart the will of God to save us. All who are called by God to believe in Jesus will be saved.

1. Every aspect of man...heart, mind, will...were corrupted in the fall. This didn't render these things useless to man, but because man lost the ability to access spiritual life, he can only operate fully in the natural realm. So as for obedience, he is able to understand the physical aspects of the commandments and perform religious practices, but his motivation is never God centered or other centered. The motivation for doing all that he does is out of a love of self. The reason for this is that sin has separated him from God.
2. No one can thwart the will of God...Daniel 4:35. So this isn't even in question. And God has called all men everywhere to obedience and repentance and belief in Christ. Mankind is responsible and accountable before God by virtue of creation. But God is under no obligation to save anyone. And men cannot save themselves. So if God does not impart life, an individual will not be saved.

 

[Cameron143]

I try to stay away from calling people liars, it is dumb on a discussion board.

I do see how there can be a correlation between kidnapping and irresistible grace, since a person is kidnapped against their will and irresistible grace does mean God acts unilaterally upon a person and the person cannot refuse, kidnap just makes for less words but yes pejorative.

....but my main concern is making God's offer of salvation to all being fraudulent.

Yes because of what you believe about crime and punishment not because I assumed you were having emotional issues that seems somewhat patronizing to me.

And to have one set of rules for yourself and another for others is disingenuous.
I never used the term irresistible grace. What I have said is no one ever refused the offer of grace once given a new heart.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What I have said is no one ever refused the offer of grace once given a new heart.

Beautiful!

 

[Cameron143]

You are correct I checked it out, you believe God gives spiritual hearing first and I still disagree, the natural man is not born deprived or morally incapable of responding to the message of the Gospel, in fact that is the condition God gives.

…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” 30So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do?…
John 6:29

He does not state that God may give you the ability to believe.

Why would He answer a question that wasn't asked? The exclusion of a consideration in one passage doesn't render other truth invalid. The particular passages simply isn't dealing with that particular concern.

 

[PaulThomson]

1. Every aspect of man...heart, mind, will...were corrupted in the fall. This didn't render these things useless to man, but because man lost the ability to access spiritual life, he can only operate fully in the natural realm. So as for obedience, he is able to understand the physical aspects of the commandments and perform religious practices, but his motivation is never God centered or other centered. The motivation for doing all that he does is out of a love of self. The reason for this is that sin has separated him from God.
2. No one can thwart the will of God...Daniel 4:35. So this isn't even in question. And God has called all men everywhere to obedience and repentance and belief in Christ. Mankind is responsible and accountable before God by virtue of creation. But God is under no obligation to save anyone. And men cannot save themselves. So if God does not impart life, an individual will not be saved.

You didn't disagree with anything in those statements, then. So on those two issues, although you reject the label of Calvinism - and fair enough, you may disagree with them elsewhere - you have arrived independently at exactly the same position as Calvinism. Is that a fair restatement of the facts?

 

[PaulThomson]

He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others.

Jesus began to speak in parables because many were rejecting His plain speech and using that speech as a reason to disrupt His ministry and try to divert him into arguments instead of ministry. So, at a certain point, to have the nay-sayers lose interest and go do something they saw as more fruitful than discussing farming and bread-making practices, Jesus began to speak in parables. It was in that phase of His ministry that He told those who were attentive, and had stayed to tease out the meaning of His parables, that they were allowed to get the explanations because they were genuinely seeking truth, but it had not been granted to the nay-sayers, who had disqualified themselves by leaving early, to have the parables explained.

Jesus did not mean that from eternity past some had been allotted the fate of understanding, and others had be allotted the fate of incomprehension.

 

[PaulThomson]

My concern is God bequeathing spiritual hearing. I cannot accept this because of the moral problems it creates and it is not in scripture obviously.

Believe as you will, the God of the Bible does not make false promises, I agree with @cv5 on this.

You are on the right track IMHO. "Spiritual" hearing and "spiritual" ears are never mentioned in scripture.

 

[PaulThomson]

Telling us we're okay making Jesus a liar... such a clever way to slander those you disagree with.

1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The Bible uses that turn of phrase. Is the Bible slandering those who disagree with it? There is a difference between inadvertently making someone a liar, and deliberately doing so. Maybe Calvinists are doing so inadvertently. But the consequence of dismissing Jesus' words because they don't fit one's own theories, or reinterpreting His words with novel definitions that are not recognised common parlance, in order to make Him appear to be saying what we would prefer Him to say, could be fairly fit the idiom: "making Him a liar." That doesn't mean the person using the expression is correct. And I don't see any point in getting all bitter about someone accusing me of something I know isn't true. I can just try yo give a coherent argument that explains why I think they are wrong.

Reason can triumph over figure of speech slinging.

 

[Magenta]

Why would He answer a question that wasn't asked? The exclusion of a consideration in one passage doesn't render other truth invalid. The particular passages simply isn't dealing with that particular concern.

It always seems to get brushed aside that God grants repentance, skewed by those who think they have a will that is free (despite the teaching of Scripture to the contrary) to mean God forces it, or somehow it is a fraudulent offer, while Paul asks, what do any have that was not given to them? <= again all but completely overlooked. What must they make of, the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, who are taken captive to do his (the devil's) will??? Do they think the will of the devil is that unbelievers turn to Christ and suddenly accept the gospel as not being foolish? That in the hostility unbelievers harbor in their minds against God, the devil desires them to believe God commanded the light to shine out of darkness into their hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ? I really do wonder how it can be asked, as @HeIsHere did, how does one feel okay making Jesus a liar. Who has said nobody can believe in God? That is just such a ridiculous thing to say. I suppose it is predicated on them not believing people (the natural man) need to have their hearts and ears circumcized, as if that was never mentioned in Scripture. I will suppose again that those with eyes to see, see it there. Because it is there.

Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Cameron143]

You didn't disagree with anything in those statements, then. So on those two issues, although you reject the label of Calvinism - and fair enough, you may disagree with them elsewhere - you have arrived independently at exactly the same position as Calvinism. Is that a fair restatement of the facts?

You say that's what Calvinism teaches. I've heard people here describe all manner of belief to Calvinism and they range from similar to very different than what I believe.

Since I have never read any of Calvin's works, I don't use the terminology ascribed to him. And for 2 reasons:
1. I can't tell you what Calvin may have meant by his use of the terms, and
2. Whenever I hear the name of Calvin invoked or terminology ascribed to him employed, the discussion becomes highly emotional. Rational people turn very irrational quickly.

So if you want to continue to invoke Calvin's name into the conversation, you are free to. But I'm not interested in talking about Calvin. I am interested in talking about Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus began to speak in parables because many were rejecting His plain speech and using that speech as a reason to disrupt His ministry and try to divert him into arguments instead of ministry. So, at a certain point, to have the nay-sayers lose interest and go do something they saw as more fruitful than discussing farming and bread-making practices, Jesus began to speak in parables. It was in that phase of His ministry that He told those who were attentive, and had stayed to tease out the meaning of His parables, that they were allowed to get the explanations because they were genuinely seeking truth, but it had not been granted to the nay-sayers, who had disqualified themselves by leaving early, to have the parables explained.

Jesus did not mean that from eternity past some had been allotted the fate of understanding, and others had be allotted the fate of incomprehension.

But He sure did say some were given and some weren't. It's a principle. And I didn't say anything about eternity past.
And the passage doesn't say He explained the parable to the multitude. It was only explained to the disciples. To the multitude he said...who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I'm interested in knowing why did Jesus use such a phrase? Was He just saying pay attention? Or was He suggesting something like Luke 8:18...take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken...

 

[Cameron143]

It always seems to get brushed aside that God grants repentance, skewed by those who think they have a will that is free (despite the teaching of Scripture to the contrary) to mean God forces it, or somehow it is a fraudulent offer, while Paul asks, what do any have that was not given to them? <= again all but completely overlooked. What must they make of, the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, who are taken captive to do his (the devil's) will??? Do they think the will of the devil is that unbelievers turn to Christ and suddenly accept the gospel as not being foolish? That in the hostility unbelievers harbor in their minds against God, the devil desires them to believe God commanded the light to shine out of darkness into their hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ? I really do wonder how it can be asked, as @HeIsHere did, how does one feel okay making Jesus a liar. Who has said nobody can believe in God? That is just such a ridiculous thing to say. I suppose it is predicated on them not believing people (the natural man) need to have their hearts and ears circumcized, as if that was never mentioned in Scripture. I will suppose again that those with eyes to see, see it there. Because it is there.

Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

I don't get the big deal. Someone has a view different than your own. So what? Make your argument using scripture and contend for the faith as you see fit. If they receive it, great. If they don't, move on. No need to slander someone.
People seem very concerned with knowledge, but little concerned to be like Christ. No where in scripture is knowledge equated to Christ-likeness. But love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness are all said to be marks of genuine believers yet are often little in evidence. Yet few seem concerned that these things are lacking in their manner of discourse. Some even laud and encourage sinful behavior so long as they agree on a particular topic.

 

[selahsays]

But He sure did say some were given and some weren't. It's a principle. And I didn't say anything about eternity past.
And the passage doesn't say He explained the parable to the multitude. It was only explained to the disciples. To the multitude he said...who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I'm interested in knowing why did Jesus use such a phrase? Was He just saying pay attention? Or was He suggesting something like Luke 8:18...take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken...

Good morning, Cameron. Maybe it’s not a principle. Eternity past? As in ”before the foundation of the world?” Was there another time that existed before the one we’re living in now in which God chose His Elect? Wasn’t Lucifer and the fallen angels cast down to the earth because of their rebellion against God? Remember the Nephilum and then the flood? …and yet Noah was found righteous. Remember when Jesus confronted the totally depraved Pharisees when He said to them:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

 

[selahsays]

It always seems to get brushed aside that God grants repentance, skewed by those who think they have a will that is free (despite the teaching of Scripture to the contrary) to mean God forces it, or somehow it is a fraudulent offer, while Paul asks, what do any have that was not given to them? <= again all but completely overlooked. What must they make of, the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, who are taken captive to do his (the devil's) will??? Do they think the will of the devil is that unbelievers turn to Christ and suddenly accept the gospel as not being foolish? That in the hostility unbelievers harbor in their minds against God, the devil desires them to believe God commanded the light to shine out of darkness into their hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ? I really do wonder how it can be asked, as @HeIsHere did, how does one feel okay making Jesus a liar. Who has said nobody can believe in God? That is just such a ridiculous thing to say. I suppose it is predicated on them not believing people (the natural man) need to have their hearts and ears circumcized, as if that was never mentioned in Scripture. I will suppose again that those with eyes to see, see it there. Because it is there.

Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

How were you saved? I mean, did you hear the Gospel? Did you make a choice to accept Jesus out of your own free-willing heart?

 

[selahsays]

I don't get the big deal. Someone has a view different than your own. So what? Make your argument using scripture and contend for the faith as you see fit. If they receive it, great. If they don't, move on. No need to slander someone.
People seem very concerned with knowledge, but little concerned to be like Christ. No where in scripture is knowledge equated to Christ-likeness. But love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness are all said to be marks of genuine believers yet are often little in evidence. Yet few seem concerned that these things are lacking in their manner of discourse. Some even laud and encourage sinful behavior so long as they agree on a particular topic.

but also this:
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

- Proverbs 9:10

 

[studier]

1 Timothy 6:3-5 NLT - "Some people may contradict our teaching, but these are the wholesome teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. These teachings promote a godly life. Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy."

You have been placed on "Ignore," not that you care at all.

I've actually suggested others do this. At least we can see you have free will and chose to do something and did it. Did I force you or did things just become unbearable so you sought a solution and you chose to do something? I fully support your right and ability to choose. I know He does too.

As for 1Tim6:3-5, once again let's pick up some context:

NKJ 1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.​

2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things.​

​

I don't recall our discussing issues of human slavery.

I do note the continuing misuse of Scripture ripped from context and this one misused to say if I contradict your teaching then I'm out of line with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Fascinating.