Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,641
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,641
studier said:
Fixed.
Click to expand...
1 Timothy 6:3-5 NLT - "Some people may contradict our teaching, but these are the wholesome teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. These teachings promote a godly life. Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy."

You have been placed on "Ignore," not that you care at all.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,642
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,642
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I still don't get it. If a person can't choose to go on their own, how could they possess free will?
Click to expand...
What do you think this means -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.

In what way is that different in meaning from -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own, even if I think my plan would work.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#7,643
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#7,643
Cameron143 said:
A new heart is regeneration. A new heart has a different nature.
Click to expand...

@Cameron143
Acts 2:37...when they heard this...He gives spiritual hearing or understanding, they were pricked in their hearts...He circumcises the heart, removing the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and this affects the will...what shall we do?

@Cameron143
I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature.

Yes I see it now, you never said cannot respond but can only respond one way.
God still leaves people in their sin in your framework, tells them to believe when in fact they cannot because they cannot even hear unless God gives spiritual hearing.

There is no doubt that if God grants spiritual hearing to some and not others then @cv5 is correct.

cv5 said:
-God's offer of repentance is fraudulent
Click to expand...
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,644
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,644
Rufus said:
I beg your pardon, then. Then you're not a free willer in the autonomous sense?

For your info, I am and I'm not! I maintain that God's image-bearers have the same moral capacity that our Image Maker does! That is to say, God cannot sin and Man cannot not sin precisely for the same reason: Their Essence or Nature. Their wills are controlled by their nature. God is free to do all that is in accordance with his nature; and so is man. But neither the Law of Identity or Scripture gives either God or Man the power to transcend or circumvent their essence. Therefore, in the cases of God and Man, both have wills that are free from external force. But those wills are not free internally, i.e. in the autonomous sense.
Click to expand...
Thanks, but I have no idea of what you're talking about.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,645
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,645
PaulThomson said:
What point is there to the "slave of sin" analogy, and the claim that a slave of sin cannot escape from master sin on their own, if it has no bearing in the slave of Philemon reality, and on the reality of many slaves and POWs who have been able to escaped their masters on their own.

It seems disingenuous to bolster one's theological claims using analogies that one has every intention of disclaiming, if someone notices the reality behind the analogies actually contradicts his claims.
Click to expand...
I haven't a clue as to what you're going on about. You are bent on arguing and I have no interest in that.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,646
Mar 1, 2022
20,084
6,884
113
62
#7,646
HeIsHere said:
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Do you agree with his assessment of what I believe?
It's interesting. You have no problem with someone lying, but someone praying for a liar is wrong? And didn't you tell me just the other day you were going to pray for me?
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,647
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,647
PaulThomson said:
What do you think this means -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.

In what way is that different in meaning from -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own, even if I think my plan would work.
Click to expand...
Boring.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,648
Mar 1, 2022
20,084
6,884
113
62
#7,648
HeIsHere said:
This seems a little different that what you have stated in the past, seems to me you had stated the new heart had to precede regeneration?
Click to expand...
You chose to hear what you wanted to hear. My position hasn't changed.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,649
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,649
Cameron143 said:
You read what he wrote. It does not reflect what I believe. He knows it isn't what I believe, and yet he has no problem saying it is what I believe. That is simply bearing false witness.
If you want to have an honest discussion, I'll answer your questions. But don't bias the questions by using Calvinist terminology. You say you don't believe in Calvinism or TULIP. Fair enough. I'm sure you believe you came to your beliefs by an individual assessment of the Bible. I have done the same. So rather than frame doctrine in terms that the Bible doesn't employ and you don't acknowledge as true, ask questions using biblical terms that you acknowledge as biblical and true.
Click to expand...
Do you agree with the following? If not, what would you change to make it say what you believe?

1. Due to sin all of mankind is completely sinful, or depraved. Every part of fallen man is corrupted by sin. He is a creature that is incapable of obeying the law of God.

2. We cannot thwart the will of God to save us. All who are called by God to believe in Jesus will be saved.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,650
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,650
PaulThomson said:
What do you think this means -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.

In what way is that different in meaning from -

Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own, even if I think my plan would work.

2ndTimothyGroup said:
Boring.
Click to expand...
It's OK to say., I don't know. I have no interest in understanding what sentences mean."
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#7,651
Jul 3, 2015
61,159
30,309
113
#7,651
HeIsHere said:
I also cannot understand how those who follow this system cannot see this! :unsure:

How does one feel okay making Jesus a liar. "Believe" but you can't believe.....oops!!
Click to expand...
Not sure how you missed it... with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Those are the words of Jesus.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#7,652
Jul 3, 2015
61,159
30,309
113
#7,652
HeIsHere said:
Amazing, so the fallen man is given a new heart, but he still is a fallen man, so now in this fallen state with a new heart he can respond to the Gospel and since he responds he is regenerated.

So the fallen man with a new heart is still a fallen man until he is regenerated, correct?

That works well because then you can make the above statement.
Click to expand...
What part of being made alive when you were dead do you not understand? Seems you reject it in whole.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#7,653
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#7,653
Cameron143 said:
Do you agree with his assessment of what I believe?
It's interesting. You have no problem with someone lying, but someone praying for a liar is wrong? And didn't you tell me just the other day you were going to pray for me?
Click to expand...
I try to stay away from calling people liars, it is dumb on a discussion board.

I do see how there can be a correlation between kidnapping and irresistible grace, since a person is kidnapped against their will and irresistible grace does mean God acts unilaterally upon a person and the person cannot refuse, kidnap just makes for less words but yes pejorative.

....but my main concern is making God's offer of salvation to all being fraudulent.

Yes because of what you believe about crime and punishment not because I assumed you were having emotional issues that seems somewhat patronizing to me.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,654
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,654
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I haven't a clue as to what you're going on about. You are bent on arguing and I have no interest in that.
Click to expand...
This is a discussion board, not a preaching board. You can blog to do that,

In a discussion board, people are going to either agree or disagree or not understand, On a discussion board, you don't get to filter responses to your posts to restrict them to only those that agree with you. You need to learn to presesnt a cogent response to counter-arguments. Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,655
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,655
PaulThomson said:
Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for this final piece of insanity. You too, have been placed on ignore. Thank God the Moderators provide and encourage us to use this upon people such as yourself. Ulf . . . what a nightmare!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#7,656
Mar 1, 2022
20,084
6,884
113
62
#7,656
HeIsHere said:
@Cameron143
Acts 2:37...when they heard this...He gives spiritual hearing or understanding, they were pricked in their hearts...He circumcises the heart, removing the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh, and this affects the will...what shall we do?

@Cameron143
I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature.

Yes I see it now, you never said cannot respond but can only respond one way.
God still leaves people in their sin in your framework, tells them to believe when in fact they cannot because they cannot even hear unless God gives spiritual hearing.

There is no doubt that if God grants spiritual hearing to some and not others then @cv5 is correct.
Click to expand...
He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others. Not me. God alone can circumcise a heart.
There i
s not one person who seeks after God with all their heart that God turns away. There is not one person who calls upon the name of the Lord who is not saved.
But I do have a question for you. Throughout the history of mankind, the majority of people have been born, lived, and died without a written or spoken word from God, never heard the name of Jesus, or had a messenger sent by God to share the gospel. What happened to these people when they died? And if God loved every one of them, and Jesus died for their sins, why didn't God send someone to them?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#7,657
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#7,657
Cameron143 said:
You chose to hear what you wanted to hear. My position hasn't changed.
Click to expand...
You are correct I checked it out, you believe God gives spiritual hearing first and I still disagree, the natural man is not born deprived or morally incapable of responding to the message of the Gospel, in fact that is the condition God gives.

…28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” 30So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do?…
John 6:29

He does not state that God may give you the ability to believe.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#7,658
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#7,658
Cameron143 said:
He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others. Not me. God alone can circumcise a heart.
There i
s not one person who seeks after God with all their heart that God turns away. There is not one person who calls upon the name of the Lord who is not saved.
But I do have a question for you. Throughout the history of mankind, the majority of people have been born, lived, and died without a written or spoken word from God, never heard the name of Jesus, or had a messenger sent by God to share the gospel. What happened to these people when they died? And if God loved every one of them, and Jesus died for their sins, why didn't God send someone to them?
Click to expand...

I have my own views on this. I trust God and I do not need to follow the Synod of Dort to deal with this moral dilemma which just creates more moral dilemmas!!!
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#7,659
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#7,659
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I haven't a clue as to what you're going on about. You are bent on arguing and I have no interest in that.

PaulThomson said:
This is a discussion board, not a preaching board. You can blog to do that,

In a discussion board, people are going to either agree or disagree or not understand, On a discussion board, you don't get to filter responses to your posts to restrict them to only those that agree with you. You need to learn to presesnt a cogent response to counter-arguments. Playing the victim and rage-quitting are not mature responses to having your opinions challenged,

REPLY
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Thank you so much for this final piece of insanity. You too, have been placed on ignore. Thank God the Moderators provide and encourage us to use this upon people such as yourself. Ulf . . . what a nightmare!
Click to expand...
I understand.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#7,660
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
#7,660
Cameron143 said:
He's not. Jesus said it is given unto you and it is not given to others. Not me. God alone can circumcise a heart.
There i
s not one person who seeks after God with all their heart that God turns away. There is not one person who calls upon the name of the Lord who is not saved.
But I do have a question for you. Throughout the history of mankind, the majority of people have been born, lived, and died without a written or spoken word from God, never heard the name of Jesus, or had a messenger sent by God to share the gospel. What happened to these people when they died? And if God loved every one of them, and Jesus died for their sins, why didn't God send someone to them?
Click to expand...

My concern is God bequeathing spiritual hearing. I cannot accept this because of the moral problems it creates and it is not in scripture obviously.

Believe as you will, the God of the Bible does not make false promises, I agree with @cv5 on this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.